Trial For Griffiths, Judge Refuses To Drop Briton From Kidnap Case

[Markham]

There is no way that anybody can say that the time of death was 11pm. A liver temp can put you with in about an hour but that is as close as you are going to get. As Lee as stated, the temp of the house, the temp of the vehicle where the body would have been placed, the temp of the area where the body was left all play into it. She very well could have been killed at 10pm. It is also possible that she was not killed at the house and could have been killed in the vehicle or some other location.

You may say that but that is the time that is being used in this case by the Prosecution. It is the certified (ie legal) time of death. The temperature on that day was 31 degrees C at the time of her abduction, dropping to 26 degrees at 11pm, dropping a little more to 25 degrees by 5am and was also 25 degrees at the time of her discovery. The humidity rose from 71% at 5pm to 89% by 11pm, 92% by 2am and 91% when she was discovered. Wind-chill is unlikely to have played a part, 7.2 km/hour with a period of no wind overnight. The fact is that the Police found absolutely no trace of Ellah Joy ever being in that house. Mark Edited October 25, 2011 by Markham

[Mr Lee]

The Time of Death was confirmed by Post Mortem conducted by a Police Surgeon. I'm not saying they don't exist here and although I have seen chest freezers for sale, they have tended to be really quite small and probably too small to place a body of her stature. However I think it's highly unlikely that there was such a freezer available. How many people would know that freezing a body can delay the onset of rigor mortis? Furthermore, IF there were such a freezer, there would likely be traces of blood within it and the Police would surely have found that when they searched Bella's house. The only blood found was on a mattress (and it was Bella's). You could argue that they cleaned the freezer - but she seemingly made no attempt to remove the blood from the mattress (as well). In my opinion, the reality is that it is rather unlikely that anyone could come up with an explanation that would hold water. Mark

I am quite sure the TOD said approx because I have never seen a death report that I remember that did not say approx. As for who might know what a freezer can do, anyone who has watched TV or some of the CSI TV programs, and while not all on those programs are correct, there have been many police stories which showed putting a body in a freezer. Also what does a freezer do for meat, preserves it until you are ready to use it, not too hard to figure out, and besides that, a quick internet search would have provided what I have provided. Next I have seen freezer chests in the stores over the years and quite a few in Manila area, so it would not be a stretch to believe that house had one. As for the blood in the freezer, a shower curtain around the body would prevented that. As for the blood in the car on the sheets, if they knew it was not the child's, such as it was from Bellas time of the month and the body was wrapped in plastic, why bother to worry about it Maybe you should read up a little on TOD on some of the forensic sites and then realize just how far off it could be even without freezers etc. Below are a couple just to give you an idea, so for a person who says their is no one on Cebu who knows how to do an investigation, why are you putting so much weight on the TOD, which I am sure says approx, or should.

POSTMORTEM CHANGES AND

DETERMINATION OF THE TIME OF DEATH

Investigative Techniques To Determine Time of Death

[Markham]

Garpo - you asked for hard facts, rather than suppositions based on press reports and I have given them to you. The Police case is very simple and straight forward: Ellah Joy was killed at Santos' house at 11pm and then driven to Sayaw Beach where her dead body was dumped at 11.50pm. Mark

[Markham]

As for the blood in the car on the sheets, if they knew it was not the child's, such as it was from Bellas time of the month and the body was wrapped in plastic, why bother to worry about it

How soon you forget! They didn't know whose blood it was until they took away sections of her mattress and the seat cushion of her car and sent them for testing. Because those samples tested negative for Ellah Joy, the Prosecution don't want the results known, since it weakens their case, and there's currently a court battle underway in an attempt to force their disclosure. Mark

[Mr Lee]

As for the blood in the car on the sheets, if they knew it was not the child's, such as it was from Bellas time of the month and the body was wrapped in plastic, why bother to worry about it

How soon you forget! They didn't know whose blood it was until they took away sections of her mattress and the seat cushion of her car and sent them for testing. Because those samples tested negative for Ellah Joy, the Prosecution don't want the results known, since it weakens their case, and there's currently a court battle underway in an attempt to force their disclosure. Mark

I did not forget, Santos had to know it was her blood and she is who I was referring to.

[Garpo]

Mark, I do not consider a police report as hard fact. If the police or anybody else is saying that it is a fact that the time of death is 11pm then they are simply wrong. As lee said and as I know, a forensic pathologist will only give an approx time of death. There is an unlimited amount of factors that can effect a determination of time of death such as body temp of victim at time of death has to be known. As children normally run at a bit higher body temp than adults it makes it even that much more difficult. But, since you seem to have access to the police reports and other information that the rest of of do not then it would be great if you could show and share that with us rather than just discussing it as if you know something that the rest of us do not.

[Markham]

Mark, I do not consider a police report as hard fact. If the police or anybody else is saying that it is a fact that the time of death is 11pm then they are simply wrong. As lee said and as I know, a forensic pathologist will only give an approx time of death. There is an unlimited amount of factors that can effect a determination of time of death such as body temp of victim at time of death has to be known. As children normally run at a bit higher body temp than adults it makes it even that much more difficult.

Gary, I might be tired (up all night with a sick baby) but I chose my words with care. I said "case" and meant "case". As to your point about body temperature, yes I know about that and I am fairly confident that the Police Pathologist would have taken that into account when making his PM report and signing the Death Certificate.

But, since you seem to have access to the police reports and other information that the rest of of do not then it would be great if you could show and share that with us rather than just discussing it as if you know something that the rest of us do not.

I had a strong feeling you would raise this sooner or later! At the risk of sounding evasive, I have to answer "no comment". The details I gave earlier about timings are a matter of public record. All that said, if, hypothetically I were to be in possession of any official documents, I could not - and would not - release them ahead of any trial, be it here or in London. To do so would be against both the laws of the Philippines and those in the UK - where it is possible there may be some form of consideration of this case. I hope you understand even though rather frustrated. Mark

[Garpo]

Mark, Take care of your baby and we can continue to have fun on this at a later time. I do have a good idea and understand what you are trying to say and I salute you in your determination that Santos and Griffiths are not guilty. I have never said that they are, I only hope that it can be presented in a court of law as to the evidence and facts of this case. I think for all of us foreigners, we hope that Griffiths is not guilty. But I certainly have not seen or read anything that has convinced me that he or Santos are not. I really look forward to the actual evidence being presented to a judge and not speculation or hearsay to the media or others.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Garpo

[Jollygoodfellow]

This is rather amusing now,throw in a freezer for arguments sake then debate it as if it was part of the case,next it will be the butler did it or was that a different show?

[Markham]

I think we can safely discount there being any freezer, dry ice, liquid nitrogen or even bags of ice from the local sari-sari featuring in this case!