Labeling Gay Kids

[ekimswish]

I'm no longer surprised while in the Philippines and people point out some 5~12 year old and tell me he's gay, even though he's not yet at a sexual age.In the West we joke about people we grew up with, from time to time, and how we knew since they were young that they were gay because they were playing girl stuff, but it's still taboo to tell a kid he's gay.In the Philippines, they see that a little boy isn't as rough and tough as his playmates - or those who should be his playmates - and right away assume he's gay and EVERYONE acknowledges it and NO ONE hides it from him, lol.With such a laidback and accepting approach to a little kid being labeled gay, it seems to take the sting out of it, and the boy just keeps doing whatever he likes, and who knows how he feels about being labeled gay so early.I've also seen, however, women encourage - half/jokingly? - young boys to become gay, because then they can make more money in the future and hook up with a rich foreigner. It seems funny to the ladies making the jokes, but what's the 11 year old boy make of all this? Does he take it seriously? Is he pissed off and offended? Is he disgusted? Or does he feel some pressure to do as told?I dunno. It's just different how they acknowledge and label "gay kids" so early. My main question is whether some males in the Philippines who AREN'T gay, actually grew up gay anyways, because that's always been their identity since they were young...... OR, does this type of banter just make it easier for actually gay kids to grow up comfortable with who they are?Whaddayu guys think? Anyone else see this here and there?

[Dave Hounddriver]

We, as a society, have no problem telling our kids to taste the taco and the hot dog then tell us what one they like best. We have no trouble letting them decide if they prefer football or swimming. But when the choices are of a taboo nature we seem to be very afraid of letting the kids make up their own mind.If you told a kid he was only allowed to eat tacos until he was legal age, don't you suppose he would have a natural curiosity as to the taste of hot dogs? But this analogy will shock many people because sex is still a big taboo in western society. No so in the Philippines, I think they are ahead of us in practice (although behind us when they are quoting the religious dogma regarding sex).

[Mike S]

telling our kids to taste the taco and the hot dog then tell us what one they like best.

Hummmmmm ....... well Dave I guess that is one way to find out if your kids like girls or boys ....... sorry ... the devil made me do it .... :boohoo: :dance: :hystery: ....... surprised Jake didn't beat me to that ..... guess he's still asleep .. :hystery:

[ekimswish]

We, as a society, have no problem telling our kids to taste the taco and the hot dog then tell us what one they like best. We have no trouble letting them decide if they prefer football or swimming. But when the choices are of a taboo nature we seem to be very afraid of letting the kids make up their own mind.If you told a kid he was only allowed to eat tacos until he was legal age, don't you suppose he would have a natural curiosity as to the taste of hot dogs? But this analogy will shock many people because sex is still a big taboo in western society. No so in the Philippines, I think they are ahead of us in practice (although behind us when they are quoting the religious dogma regarding sex).

I agree, totally. I'm just wondering if some of these young kids AREN'T gay, but grow up treated gay, and end up living gay. I know it's not a stretch for young straight guys in need of money to pimp themselves out to gays with money in the Philippines, so I wonder if an entire lifestyle can be swayed by a lifetime of people saying, "Hey, bayut!" Or, do they have it right, and these young kids are, in fact, 99% gay?

[Bruce]

You guys are missing the point. While progressive in your postings, there is an unspoken assumption that 'gay' is 2nd class and that if given a choice, 'a gay' (Pinoy term) would choose to be straight.George Harrison was once asked what it was like being a Beatle. He replied he was a Beatle his entire life from his teenage years and he did NOT know what it was like to NOT be Beatle.Gays who are open and raised in a comfortable atmosphere are being what they are and as such, changing into something else is not really even considered.Research a few years ago have identified a 'lesbian' gene found in most dyke type of lesbians. Conservatives JUMPED on this as abnormal (make up your own mind on this) and it caused quite a issue because as gene therapy is going, sooner or later, 'that' gene will be able to be 'turned off' which has pissed off the gay / lesbian community.As one of the (very) few men working in OB/GYN nursing, I have said for years that the field is dominated by bisexual / lesbian women who may STRONGLY disagree, until you ask those fatal questions..... 1. Is there any nudity involved? 2. are YOU there looking and touching other women in an intimate fashion? 3. What makes YOU want to be intimate with other women? (trial attorney at depositions for sexual abuse of female patients)It has to due what what is called a 'comfort zone'. No matter if you are a man or a woman, if YOU are not comfortable looking at and touching intimately, members of your gender.... then you simply don't look for work in an area that requires it! True heterosexual people do not put themselves into a position to day after day, be intimate with their own gender. (Insert the CLOSET theory explainations here)Unfortunately, there are STARK differences between gay men and lesbian women in that most gay men get along with women well, as compared to gay women who often have a chip on their shoulder against men and this causes them to often abuse their positions in OB/GYN by trying to get the patient's male partner to LEAVE NOW...... A little female bonding / quality time is on their minds and since we all see the world thru our own eyes.... they often assume that because THEY would rather men not be around, that (falsely) the woman as a patient also feels this same way.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Bruce

[Dave Hounddriver]

True heterosexual people do not put themselves into a position to day after day, be intimate with their own gender.

I was with ya until this one. Unless you are saying all the football players, wrestlers, hockey players, and other sports jocks are gay?

[Bruce]

True heterosexual people do not put themselves into a position to day after day, be intimate with their own gender.

I was with ya until this one. Unless you are saying all the football players, wrestlers, hockey players, and other sports jocks are gay?

Ah... didn't you read that part about 'intimate with their own gender'? What are YOU saying goes on in those locker rooms! heheheheInsert Bradshaw is gay jokes here......And I am quite proud of myself that I never one mentioned SANDUSKY! (Oops....)And, did you see the 'original' news articles about Tebow DOING circumcisions in Mindanao? The public furor in asking WHAT??? and WHY??? and then his fast back tracking?For those who are not familiar with Pinoy customs.... circumcisions are done between ages 9 to 11 YEARS old and with the poor, often done 'en mass' with in 2010, the Guiness book people refusing to reconize a catagory of mass circumcisions to discourage plans to have 200+ boys done at one time in .... of course.... the Philippines.The human mind is an interesting thing..... humans are able to talk themselves into or believe in things that are simply not rational. To the AVERAGE man.... if an 'opportunity' comes up to watch or participate in the circumcision(s) of boy(s) between 9-11 yrs of age...... the AVERAGE man knows enough to stay the hell away of it unless he is the one doing the carving (also done by DENTISTS in the Philippines) and even then... maybe not?? But Tebow... the locker room grab ass playing (??) group shower guy (???) not only jumped on the chance, but, according to original reports, was DOING them his self.... So inconclusion, I think that the statement that ALL sports jocks are gay is totally incorrect, but from a statictical point, just WHY is Sandusky the 'towel boy' by choice? heheheheheNow, about wrestlers..... in the news last year was a sexual assult trial in which (I am not making this up) a high school wrestler, SHOVED his finger thru the shorts of the other wrestler and deep into his anus in a move that is 'STANDARD' called a dip stick or 'checking the oil'....... The coach TAUGHT this move and the kids father says he did it when he was a wrestler in school...... So fellas, got a boy in HS or a grandson in HS, and the kid come home and tells you what happen to HIM in wrestling practice today.... what are you going to do?In reality, there is, in any sport or field or job that involves 'touching' (as in female nurses / docs in OB/GYN) there will be a # of people there to satisfy their own needs and desires..... I have, myself filed complaints several times in my nursing career. One was against a nursing instructor who took advantage of a spanish only speaking woman, in the US illegally. This patient had already had her baby and was going to be sent home in 24 hrs. The nursing instructor came in with female only students (illegal under title 9) and SHAVED her cooter bald, under the 'guise' of teaching the students how to shave a woman's pubic area. There was no medical need to shave her and she chose an illegal who would not complain, and spoke no english.I also filed a complaint against a midwife instructor, who had vag exam parties in which the female only (again) students met at her house to examine each other so they would know what it is like and what to do!In both cases, there was a woman in a position of authority, abusing her position to gain intimate access to a 'weaker' woman's body when there was no legal or medical basis to do so.And you know what???? Before I became a nurse, I never even knew how to spell ethics much less thought I had any! Edited February 3, 2012 by Bruce

[Tatoosh]

Women can be just as predatory as men. There was a wave of abuse by gay partners gathering attention in the press when I was in the States. Now I really don't care who likes what as long as they treat other people with respect. In terms of the original post, I find it amusing and refreshing that children can be what ever they like and most adults are comfortable with that. My wife has a very gay cross dressing professor who is sharp as a tack. She often refers to him as a woman because that is what thinks of himself as generally. My personal doctor is definitely gay and openly jokes (in an pretty acceptable manner) about his preference with the nurses. Since he's saved my life twice in ICU, I'm kinda fond of him regardless of his preferences. Some gays and transexuals say they are treated poorly, but I think that may be due to personality and ability. If they don't succeed it is easier to blame someone for being a bigot than to acknowledge they might be inadequate for the position or promotion.But overall, I think that in terms of dealing with sexual preference, the Philippines is head and shoulder over the States. And while some boys may be pressured to be gay so they can get a foreign partner, a whole lot more young women deal with pressure to find a foreigner routinely. That is a bit of cottage industry, to be sure.I know one fairly sad case that ended sadly for all involved. I won't go into details, but the young girl ended up being totally miserable in a loveless marriage. The guy, pretty much a classic a**h*l*, none the less took care of her and sent her brothers to college and helped them have a chance to succeed. Her parents, of course, forced her to stay when she tried to leave before they were actually married because, good or bad, he had money. But if they are left to their own choices, they can succeed or fail as their talents and diligence allows. It is not a closet condition here. Much the same is true in Thailand with a large contingent of katoey GRO's but they can be seen working regular jobs too. So it is personal choice to a large extent, I think.

[ekimswish]

Women can be just as predatory as men. There was a wave of abuse by gay partners gathering attention in the press when I was in the States. Now I really don't care who likes what as long as they treat other people with respect.In terms of the original post, I find it amusing and refreshing that children can be what ever they like and most adults are comfortable with that. My wife has a very gay cross dressing professor who is sharp as a tack. She often refers to him as a woman because that is what thinks of himself as generally. My personal doctor is definitely gay and openly jokes (in an pretty acceptable manner) about his preference with the nurses. Since he's saved my life twice in ICU, I'm kinda fond of him regardless of his preferences. Some gays and transexuals say they are treated poorly, but I think that may be due to personality and ability. If they don't succeed it is easier to blame someone for being a bigot than to acknowledge they might be inadequate for the position or promotion.But overall, I think that in terms of dealing with sexual preference, the Philippines is head and shoulder over the States. And while some boys may be pressured to be gay so they can get a foreign partner, a whole lot more young women deal with pressure to find a foreigner routinely. That is a bit of cottage industry, to be sure.I know one fairly sad case that ended sadly for all involved. I won't go into details, but the young girl ended up being totally miserable in a loveless marriage. The guy, pretty much a classic a**h*l*, none the less took care of her and sent her brothers to college and helped them have a chance to succeed. Her parents, of course, forced her to stay when she tried to leave before they were actually married because, good or bad, he had money. But if they are left to their own choices, they can succeed or fail as their talents and diligence allows. It is not a closet condition here. Much the same is true in Thailand with a large contingent of katoey GRO's but they can be seen working regular jobs too. So it is personal choice to a large extent, I think.

Yeah, I definitely think it goes on A LOT MORE in Thailand, where poor farmers will intentionally (so I've heard) raise their sons to be girls in hopes that they can cash in on the foreign men market. In the Philippines, I don't think any parents (that I've ever heard of) intentionally raise their kids gay just for this reason, but I've seen my wife and her friends joke about it with other people's kids - MAYBE OVERSTEPPING THEIR BOUNDARIES. Still, at least they're just joking.I think the Philippines is amazingly accepting of gay lifestyles, and I admire them for it. Still, it's quite different from what it is in the West.My first exposure to a Filipino family was in Canada, where my friend told me his father constantly beat up his uncle when they were younger because he thought he was gay. He tried to beat the gay out of him, and it apparently worked because the uncle is now married with kids. Based on that, the Philippines being so Christian, and my experience in Canada with Christians as being anti-gay, I assumed it would not be a good place for gays to live.Then when I went to my wife's hometown, I saw lots and lots of gays in what would be considered a hick-town back home. Not only that, but during our house-hopping at New Year's that vacation, one father proudly told me how he used to have a son, but now he has a daughter, as his lady-boy kid got ready for a beauty contest. I was surprised.Finally, I was drinking with my wife's gay friend and his click at the bar scene in Tacloban, and got to ask all the questions that I'd been wanting answers to for some time.Q1: Why are you guys here looking for men, when you're all, in fact, men, and could go home together? (as in the West where gays date gays)A: We're looking for straight men because, I guess, we like the look of satisfaction on their face when it's happening.Q2: Why would a straight guy hook up with you if they're actually straight.A: We have money, and a lot of young guys need of money, so they'll come with us.Q3: Why are lady-boys in Thailand so quick to have a sex-change and lady-boys in the Philippines seem not to.A: We're Catholic and we were taught to respect the body that God gave us, so we shouldn't try to change it like that.Okay, so that was my quick interview with him, and it was really interesting. I actually talked with him about a lot more things, but can't remember all. But the point is that their openness and acceptance of gays in the Philippines is fascinating and encouraging (not for me personally ;), but I still wonder if it's a positive or a negative to tell a kid he's gay, if he doesn't even know yet what being gay is?

[Tatoosh]

My wife told me a very similar story about a young gay that the father did his best to beat the gay out of him. Didn't work and he/she ended up being a very successful entertainer in Japan, building the family a house and so forth.I don't know that labeling a kid as gay will make them become that. Sexuality varies and much of it is simply cultural. Ancient Greeks were often bisexual and that was considered appropriate. A completely different mindset from today in terms of romantic love versus familial love. Of course, some folks push that aspect pretty hard particularly for Sparta, but there are lots of traditional myths and tales where women and men were completely infatuated with the other.I think a kid will figure out what he or she likes regardless of the jokes adults make as long as they are not forced into some sort of relationship before they develop their natural preferences. Sex used to be a pretty well known thing, not hidden from sight or at least hearing, until the 1800's and the development of urban housing where bedrooms were separated from living areas. Before that, particularly in rural or semi-rural areas, life went on, day and night, so that everyone knew what was happening because they could hear it from the bed across the room. I actually believe that the knowledge of sex is not particularly damaging, regardless of the current wave of prudery that plays in most Western cultures. I base that on a few thousand years of previous human development where people lived in family groups communally and not in tiny rooms with closed doors. It was the advent of those rooms and the advent the Victorian morality and repression of sex that led to the rise of child abuse then and that has sadly continued into the present.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Tatoosh