Which Career? What Degree?

[Tatoosh]

A bit of inter-sibling rivalry has been going on. My wife's next youngest brother passed his Master Electrician exam. My wife is working on her Masters Degree in education. The brother likes to joke he is already a "Master" and with 3 years of college can make more than she does with 6 years of college.Of course, he's still looking for a job and the boasts of high income are starting to fade as he scrambles to find anything that will pay a "reasonable" wage and let him get some experience overseas. He had turned down a 30k a month job, partially due to he not having an updated passport and still in the process of taking the exam for his PRC Master Electrician certificate. Now he would jump at that offer! He was expecting to find something paying 40k or 50k pesos a month. I am betting if he got a 25k offer he'd jump.At the same time, my wife and I were browsing the internet and found a number of offers in Singapore for SPED and early education teachers that paid 65k peso a month plus. Hong Kong has a couple of job offers in the $1500 US figure. And of course a number of jobs in the Middle East that did not have income stated, but rather "negotiable". Due to a downturn in the world economy and particularly in the US economy, the luster is off SPED masters degrees and nursing degrees in general. Teachers are not getting work visas to the USA much anymore and that has caused a drop in college enrollment. I have heard that the glut of nurse graduates is finally starting to effect the enrollment in those programs. My wife is happy that she chose to pursue SPED and she hopes to add some Early Childhood courses when she has time. She doesn't have to worry about a work visa since she qualifies for a spousal visa. And a search for jobs show that SPED jobs are still fairly plentiful compared to the layoffs in the general education area. She shouldn't have a problem picking up an assistant teacher position when she arrives and adapts to the US educational system. But what would you point your wife's siblings toward? I hesitate pointing them toward the IT field because it is so competitive and I don't think Filipino colleges are really top notch in a field where that is what you need to succeed. I've seen guys move here thinking they will hire cheap Filipino programers and then listen to them moan about the level of ability and diligence. I do know one guy that is very successful at web design using Filipino programmers but he has a different attitude toward his workers than most managers, so I think his success is based on an unusual set of personal skills and ethics. Food service is a field that Filipinos might excel in, regardless of the paucity of the culinary heritage (imho), if they can get good training. I have one brother-in-law doing the HRM college thing with a eye toward cooking. He is getting a good education but not the equivalent of a good US culinary school by any means. Still, compared to many schools here, he is getting a pretty decent education at a school that takes pride in hiring qualified instructors and having a good infrastructure. How many schools have free filtered water coolers in the Philippines? The attitude that provides those is the sort of attitude you need when selecting a school.One brother-in-law, now considering a meat cutters career, wanted to become an aircraft mechanic. I'm not sure what the job outlook for those are, but I'm pretty sure the military is kicking a chunk of pretty well trained aircraft mechanics out regularly so the job market is likely tight. I may be wrong on this one.What are your thoughts on good jobs or degrees. What is the career path you'd recommend to a Filipino? I mean one that didn't have a free shot to the States or the UK or Australia? One that had to find a job starting from the Philippines.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tatoosh

[MikeB]

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss IT, although I don't know how good (or bad) the schools are here. Cisco Network Engineers, Security Specialists, and Database Administrators are in very high demand all over the world with commensurate salaries if you have high-level experience. The hours can be brutal in the hospitality field, it's ok when you're young, not so much as you get older. But it really comes down to what they want to do.

[Tatoosh]

What they want to do is make money. Poverty is a great motivator but not always the best guide for a career. Just as the brother-in-law that wanted to do a aircraft maintenance liked the idea, the cost of training had to balance against opportunity. The idea of meat cutting, not his first choice I am sure, came from working in an SM market and finding out the meat cutters not only got paid better, but some of them were being sent overseas. That put some sparkle into a job he was not particularly interested in before.The IT gig is great if you are capable. My trouble with it is that I have some serious doubts about many of the schools that teach it here. Plus the demand is for competent skilled workers. Which likely means speaking passable English in order to communicate ideas with your coworkers who may not speak Tagalog or Cebuano or Ilocano. I am guessing that 20 to 25 percent of the graduates of IT school really have a shot at a job overseas based on their coding and language skills. I may be wrong. I know one son of a taxi driver here that is working in IT in Singapore, so it does happen. He was a pretty bright kid and his younger sister was nigh on a math prodigy. Not your average Filipino, imho.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tatoosh

[Curley]

This is not quite on topic but a few years ago I interviewed IT people as I was thinking of opening up in the Philippines..... the standard of competence was apalling. I was told that most of the IT universities are sponsored by the large IT companies and the cream is taken by the sponsors leaving the dross to fend for themselves.

[Jake]

This is not quite on topic but a few years ago I interviewed IT people as I was thinking of opening up in the Philippines..... the standard of competence was apalling. I was told that most of the IT universities are sponsored by the large IT companies and the cream is taken by the sponsors leaving the dross to fend for themselves.

Many years ago I attended San Sebastian College near Manila and I must tell you the average creamof the crop was way too young and immature. This was in my 2nd year college pursuing a businessmanagement degree. I don't know if this is common for all campuses in PI, but prior to each final exam,we had to reconfigure the whole classroom to prevent cheating. In retrospect, the learning process wasmostly memorization rather than understanding. College drop out -- Jake

[i am bob]

I am one of those strange people who have had several professions over the years and, since I developed an interest in the Philippines, started asking people I met from there what they thought... I started in Avionics and, when I asked my Filipino friend, was told that there wasn't much work any more as much of it was being shipped out of country (same as Canada). Because of my experience with Flight Computers, I ended up transferred into IT (good old Armed Forces) back before the internet was really available to the masses and later watched that profession go down the drain here as everybody wanted kids who would work for minimum wage. When I asked what it was like in the Philippines, I was told that unless you were in the very top percentage of your class - or knew somebody - odds of getting a job were slim... And then, unless you were really good, you wouldn't last long. As well with the Armed Forces I performed the same basic job as a School Administrator... And that is one I don't think anybody is going to get into when starting out... Taxi driver and musician - yeah, sure! Retail Management? There is almost always a need for someone somewhere... But without experience you will be starting out either on the floor or warehouse... Unless they do it the way I did and they start their own business and have it succeed to unbelievable levels almost immediately. Just don't do as I did and lose it in a failed marriage! Again, it is still do-able if they were to get a good degree pertinent to business though... And then they would probably be able to do much better than Retail Management. Financial Services? This is an area a person can do really well but, unless they start in a bank, they better know a lot of well off people who will be interested in their services! I still have a few more things that I do but I guess you can see my point now? Business / Finance is probably what I would suggest to anyone as it is fairly transferable to almost any country if you are good and easier to get started in. But if they find that field starting to get over congested, don't wait for the crash but start training on the side for something different! One last option I forgot and before I stop to take a breath.... BPOs! If somebody is quick and not nervous about being on the phones, they can get started on the floor. Work hard and try to learn what the managers are doing, QA is doing, Ops is doing... If they find one of these positions that they really like, try to learn how to do the job and then just keep applying for that position as it comes up! I was with HP for training and 2 days on the floor before I was promoted to QA and with AMEX Concierge, I was hired straight in as I had the experience with HP (though a direct hire for QA is rare). The pay to start isn't great there but it isn't too bad... And the path to management is easier once they have their foot in the door! This is one job where asking questions (during their own time) about better paying positions as well as working hard will get them promoted quickly! I know of a girl in Manila area who started with no experience and is now a manager - within 6 months time!

[Tatoosh]

@ Curley and Jake: That is my impression too from listening to a few guys that either tried to hire programmers or went to school here. As I said, I know one kano that studied here, learned a lot, started a successful business, and has an extensive group of Filipino programmers working for him. So it can be done. But I heard from guys that took courses where they ended up knowing more than their instructors and essentially teaching most of the course.The cheating thing is so pervasive and is tied to the culture of corruption. And that manifests itself in the odd way here. I was helping my wife write a paper for her class, finding some potential sources of research to cite on the internet for her to , checking her English for mistakes and so forth. I showed her how to do attributions the way we were taught in college in the USA. She was, "No no, don't do that. They won't like it." I explained that you can't plagiarize other peoples work, you have to cite the author, particularly in upper level work. So passages that were quotes were given attributes at my insistence.She got whacked, grade wise, on that paper. Other classmates papers (each student had to provide copies of their papers to every classmate) that were obvious cut and paste jobs but without attribution got higher grades. I had to relent. She needs her grade here in the Philippines in order to graduate. I consider the practice of C&P large passages without attribution or source information to be appalling, so I insist she keep a record of sources even if they are not cited in her papers. She understands that C&P would be completely unacceptable in the USA. I understand it is requirement in the Philippines. So it goes. It is another cultural difference that is simply the way it is.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Tatoosh

[Tatoosh]

i am bob, so what is BPO? I have seen mentioned before but not sure exactly what it is. In conversations with other expats that worked abroad, such as in the Middle East, I'd hear comments like, "When we hired a Filipino, I'd take all his certificates and diplomas and throw them in the garbage." The guy that said that went on to explain that he's been burned too many times where the worker didn't have a clue about his job even though he had extensive certifications and so forth. When he got a new hire, he gave them the simplest jobs, watched them and increased their work assignments when he saw they could do the job. He never started a worker off at the level they claimed to be able to perform. He'd had too many "highly qualified" and "Philippine certified" technicians and mechanics that couldn't figure out what size or kind of wrench to use. It was just to simple to either fabricate or buy professional credentials.Note: added later: That attitude stung quite a bit when I first heard it. I was putting a brother-in-law through an associates degree in electrical engineering. The idea that his efforts and my money was going to waste worried me. But the bottom line is if they can do the work. I had one auto mechanic here that was sterling. I don't care what country he worked in, he'd be a star. He found the problem, he fixed it. He'd do it cheap if he could, but he wouldn't fake anything. Now he's overseas and I was sorry to see him go. So please don't take my comments as Filipino bashing. I do not mean it to be demeaning but simply, where appropriate, descriptive.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Tatoosh

[i am bob]

i am bob, so what is BPO? I have seen mentioned before but not sure exactly what it is.In conversations with other expats that worked abroad, such as in the Middle East, I'd hear comments like, "When we hired a Filipino, I'd take all his certificates and diplomas and throw them in the garbage." The guy that said that went on to explain that he's been burned too many times where the worker didn't have a clue about his job even though he had extensive certifications and so forth. When he got a new hire, he gave them the simplest jobs, watched them and increased their work assignments when he saw they could do the job. He never started a worker off at the level they claimed to be able to perform. He'd had too many "highly qualified" and "Philippine certified" technicians and mechanics that couldn't figure out what size or kind of wrench to use. It was just to simple to either fabricate or buy professional credentials.Note: added later: That attitude stung quite a bit when I first heard it. I was putting a brother-in-law through an associates degree in electrical engineering. The idea that his efforts and my money was going to waste worried me. But the bottom line is if they can do the work. I had one auto mechanic here that was sterling. I don't care what country he worked in, he'd be a star. He found the problem, he fixed it. He'd do it cheap if he could, but he wouldn't fake anything. Now he's overseas and I was sorry to see him go. So please don't take my comments as Filipino bashing. I do not mean it to be demeaning but simply, where appropriate, descriptive.

BPO is Business Process Outsourcing - or a fancy name for an upgraded Call Centre. I had heard the same thing myself about working qualifications in the Philippines... The degrees you get often aren't worth the ink printed on them and they use pretty cheap ink! Even in Canada I would hire along the same lines as you mentioned... Find someone with aptitude for the job and start them at the bottom... Let them work their way up! Unfortunately now, in both countries, too often it's hire at the cheapest wage and, when a pay raise or promotion is due, let them go for some bull reason and rehire someone else at minimum pay again! Fun Fact: One of my tests for hiring a cashier.... Very quickly and intensely bombard them with facts and figures, tell them you are going to test them right now and then ask them what 3-2 was equal to... Do the whole process at a quick pace. Watch their eyes and that will give you the the answer you want. If they couldn't mentally switch gears on the spot, they always would get flustered on the line where they are also the last chance you have to make a good impression with the customer so they will come back.

[dean01]

IT wins hands down software development is still in demand. As for the guy who could nit find good staff I bet they got jobs. I now train my own staff. I also run a bpo I do not hire graduates but would recommend my close friends to do uni and get experiance as the uni only helps to get the interview but the experiance will land the job. I had staff working from 30k to 200k in IT and seen 20% work os.