Saving Face

[i am bob]

Friendships are lost all the time over silly things... We have seen a few members here disappear over things that were said that didn't really warrant these losses yet they happened. But their way of saving face was to not stay where they thought they were not wanted or liked. Many expats don't want to live near their inlaws so they don't have to face being the bad guy and not the bank. Moving far enough away to avoid this is their way of saving face in dealing with the inlaws... Two quick examples of how some of us save face yet they involve seperating themselves from those who will give them issues. What I am trying to point out here is several things at once... First, we all try to save face but use different methods that aren't so different than the more basic Filipino ways... Second, we all have issues sooner or later that we don't know a better way to solve other than what the other side will consider running away... Third, no matter what we do we will all lose friends over the years through our actions or theirs ... Fourth, if the other side is given the tools, there is always the chance you will end up dead for being in the wrong place at the wrong time - ie: the recent murder in Florida of the teen by the Neighbourhood Watch captain.No matter how much we deny it, it ain't any different really no matter where in the world we are... We just seem to notice it more.

[Jake]

Hmmmmm. Are you guys telling me that it is Philippine culture to practice dishonesty ? How is then that one could possibly build trust in any sort of relationship ? Please explain to me then how " Honor " is defined there.

Hello Magnum PI,As you may know, saving face or its opposite, NOT losing face seems to be a culture that is common throughout Asia. In my observation as a Filipino, many situations degrade the honor system. For example: the Filipino term called "utang na loob" is a serious debt of gratitude that must be paid back. Whether that involves going against the law or taking a short cut seems to thrive in the Filipino culture. Just about everyday, you can read high profile cases that saving face is paramount above anything else, including personal integrity. A case in point is the ongoing impeachment trial of the supreme court justice, the honorary judge Corona (I used that term lightly). Another case is the arraignment of the previous president for massive fraud from her re-election campaign. She was stopped cold at Manila International airport trying to escape prosecution. It was a pitiful sight -- rushed to the airport in an ambulance and wearing a neck brace that said "have pity on me". The Philippines is full of drama queens. Does this affect the normal everyday Filipino? For example, if someone complains about your rendition of singing "My Way", would you accept the criticism and step down from the microphone? Unfortunately, some Filipinos would rather save face by shooting the complainer. Hence, that song is barred from every karaoke establishment because too many Pinoys have been killed. The list could go on, but I need to take my blood pressure meds now......he, he.

[joeatmanila]

Why we discuss that? I do not get it.Yes we do not understand the concept of the word "loosing face" just because we are the same in the first world countries but we call it in different words.For 15 years before i get married and move here, i used to employ helpers/cleaners once or twice a week. They were from my home country first and later that we imported plenty of immigrants (legal and not) from the former Eastern Europe. I remember clearly the same concept as "loosing face" happening there as well when it comes to the examples of the coffee mugs, only after i was telling them (not asking them) "did it so happened that you broke the two coffee mugs due to an accident?" or because you got scared from th "ugly noise of the door bell" or any other excuse i would provide them, then they would say yes sir it happened so because...tra la la....Same is happening here, or isn't?The intimidating process at many parts of business life or life it's self? Isn't the same happening on our worlds too? Go sell your car in US or Europe and tell me what the dealer told you in order to get a lesser price on it. Yes he did not use the faces and geastures they use here because of his assurance that what ever you find in front of you will come on his head...Here though guns rule and when you know the one intimidating you might pull a gun as well or send for you...you just put the head down and leave so not to "loose face" they call it in a simple expression.Forget your western ways, you are not there!!! Come and speak to them the other way. Give them a sweet excuse to their fault, so they might say the truth. Exactly the same thing is hppening to the western world too. Who will be asked from his boss if he broke this or that, fearing that loosing his job means no food to eat, and will pop up and proudly say "me boss, i broke it, fire me now so i starve for a few days"When a Mexican comes to the US you expect him to behave to your ways, when an Albanian goes to Germany the same and so on. Why you do not adopt to what the way is here since you choosed to come here? Not your country to change it :)

[joeatmanila]

Hmmmmm. Are you guys telling me that it is Philippine culture to practice dishonesty ? How is then that one could possibly build trust in any sort of relationship ? Please explain to me then how " Honor " is defined there.

Hello Magnum PI, As you may know, saving face or its opposite, NOT losing face seems to be a culture that is common throughout Asia. In my observation as a Filipino, many situations degrade the honor system. For example: the Filipino term called "utang na loob" is a serious debt of gratitude that must be paid back. Whether that involves going against the law or taking a short cut seems to thrive in the Filipino culture. Just about everyday, you can read high profile cases that saving face is paramount above anything else, including personal integrity. A case in point is the ongoing impeachment trial of the supreme court justice, the honorary judge Corona (I used that term lightly). Another case is the arraignment of the previous president for massive fraud from her re-election campaign. She was stopped cold at Manila International airport trying to escape prosecution. It was a pitiful sight -- rushed to the airport in an ambulance and wearing a neck brace that said "have pity on me". The Philippines is full of drama queens. Does this affect the normal everyday Filipino? For example, if someone complains about your rendition of singing "My Way", would you accept the criticism and step down from the microphone? Unfortunately, some Filipinos would rather save face by shooting the complainer. Hence, that song is barred from every karaoke establishment because too many Pinoys have been killed. The list could go on, but I need to take my blood pressure meds now......he, he.

Sir Jake, isn't the same in all over the world, isn't the news papers full of crimes due to "honor". We call it honor crime, they call it loosing face, we expect to be respected so they do too. You insult a filipino in front of his friends "when are you going to pay the what you owe me" he might react different ways up to killing you, you say to an American-Greek-German-Swedish-Marsian the same and if his first reply is not the kind words of f and f and f it might be his fists and according ot each and everyones personality they react. Very few will put the head down and leave. So should we prefer filipinos to give us the same words back so to feel the equal? hahahahhaMy own 5 centavos opinion opinion :)

[i am bob]

Just about everyday, you can read high profile cases that saving face is paramount above anything else, including personal integrity. A case in point is the ongoing impeachment trial of the supreme court justice, the honorary judge Corona (I used that term lightly). Another case is the arraignment of the previous president for massive fraud from her re-election campaign. She was stopped cold at Manila International airport trying to escape prosecution. It was a pitiful sight -- rushed to the airport in an ambulance and wearing a neck brace that said "have pity on me". The Philippines is full of drama queens.

I think you hit on it in a way there Jake! When the average Filipino sees the government, the judicial system and the police doing the things they all know are wrong, how are they - the people - suppose to react when they deem that someone else has done them wrong too? There have been some drastic changes in the groups I mentioned above and what is acceptible in just their own actions now. I think that, in the very near future, we are going to see more and more changes to attitudes of the general public because of this. And this in turn will affect how people will react in regards to their "losing face".

[Jake]

Hmmmmm. Are you guys telling me that it is Philippine culture to practice dishonesty ? How is then that one could possibly build trust in any sort of relationship ? Please explain to me then how " Honor " is defined there.

Hello Magnum PI, As you may know, saving face or its opposite, NOT losing face seems to be a culture that is common throughout Asia. In my observation as a Filipino, many situations degrade the honor system. For example: the Filipino term called "utang na loob" is a serious debt of gratitude that must be paid back. Whether that involves going against the law or taking a short cut seems to thrive in the Filipino culture. Just about everyday, you can read high profile cases that saving face is paramount above anything else, including personal integrity. A case in point is the ongoing impeachment trial of the supreme court justice, the honorary judge Corona (I used that term lightly). Another case is the arraignment of the previous president for massive fraud from her re-election campaign. She was stopped cold at Manila International airport trying to escape prosecution. It was a pitiful sight -- rushed to the airport in an ambulance and wearing a neck brace that said "have pity on me". The Philippines is full of drama queens. Does this affect the normal everyday Filipino? For example, if someone complains about your rendition of singing "My Way", would you accept the criticism and step down from the microphone? Unfortunately, some Filipinos would rather save face by shooting the complainer. Hence, that song is barred from every karaoke establishment because too many Pinoys have been killed. The list could go on, but I need to take my blood pressure meds now......he, he.

Sir Jake, isn't the same in all over the world, isn't the news papers full of crimes due to "honor". We call it honor crime, they call it loosing face, we expect to be respected so they do too. You insult a filipino in front of his friends "when are you going to pay the what you owe me" he might react different ways up to killing you, you say to an American-Greek-German-Swedish-Marsian the same and if his first reply is not the kind words of f and f and f it might be his fists and according ot each and everyones personality they react. Very few will put the head down and leave. So should we prefer filipinos to give us the same words back so to feel the equal? hahahahhaMy own 5 centavos opinion opinion :)

Hello Joe, I'm going to bump that 5 centavos to a couple of pesos. You are absolutely right -- many people from all walks of life in every country will save their own butts because of ego trips. Remember a certain US president claimed that it wasn't sex at all. Just oral sex.....he, he. Edited October 13, 2012 by Jake
korrect my spill chek

[Mike S]

Saving face is simply an excuse to keep from admitting you were wrong ..... I don't care what you call it ... it is simply an excuse ..... (my grandfather used to tell me " ... you have more excuses than a boy with a paper a*s-hole) ........ that way you don't have to say you are sorry for anything .... just ignore the person or say I don't know ...... to me saying I am sorry is a whole lot better than saying I don't know ..... but then some people "man up" and some people take the other way out by denying any knowledge about anything ..... take a look at all the high profile rich people during their trials like the Ligot's...... they deny knowing anything about houses they own or even how many times they visited the US or how much money they have ...... hey .... if you never admit to anything it will go away and everything will be alright ..... but neither you or I will change or want to change this aspect ..... at least I won't and don't ..... and I didn't write any of the above and you can't make me say I did ...... nope ..... I didn't ..... after all you didn't see me type it ..... did you ....... :) :dance: :hystery:

Edited March 23, 2012 by Mike S

[Dave Hounddriver]

Saving face is simply an excuse to keep from admitting you were wrong

I see so many grumpy old foreigners in the Philippines who do that. Its good to know that they have adapted to the culture enough to learn about saving face.And here all this time I thought they just did not like to admit they were wrong. :)Thanks for educating me on that. :dance:

[Mike S]

If I am wrong or did something wrong I will admit it in a New York minute ....... I see nothing wrong in that ..... so what is the worst thing that can happen to me ..... they can't eat me I'm to big .... :) ..... as to getting fired for telling the truth .... sorry if you made the mistake own up to it ..... in 99% of the time your employer will admire your truthfulness ...... I always told my employees if you tell me the truth I can live with it if you made a mistake..... if you lie about it or make excuses your outta here ..... besides your gonna get caught anyway so all you do is delay the inevitable ...... See Dave ..... another reason I don't associate with foreigners ...... :dance: :hystery: :hystery:

[earthdome]

If I am wrong or did something wrong I will admit it in a New York minute ....... I see nothing wrong in that ..... so what is the worst thing that can happen to me ..... they can't eat me I'm to big .... :) ..... as to getting fired for telling the truth .... sorry if you made the mistake own up to it ..... in 99% of the time your employer will admire your truthfulness ...... I always told my employees if you tell me the truth I can live with it if you made a mistake..... if you lie about it or make excuses your outta here ..... besides your gonna get caught anyway so all you do is delay the inevitable ......See Dave ..... another reason I don't associate with foreigners ...... :dance: :hystery: :hystery:

Amen brother!Having employees who will not only tell the truth when asked but let you know when they screwed up is vital. You can't fix a mistake or take actions to improve quality if you don't know about it. People make mistakes. A good employee will learn from their mistakes.