Saving Face

[daisy]

Perhaps the Philippine concept of honesty is just different than it is in other cultures. Perhaps some have been taught that it is ok to do or say things that other cultures would consider dishonest because, as long as they confess their sins in church then God says it ok. Or perhaps they don't consider 'lying by omission' to be wrong.In any event, the way to build trust is to teach each other what you each consider acceptable.

I used to believe that there are different kinds of LIES and that God will understand it...like white lies, justifiable lies, big lies, etc., however when I understand LIES in the Biblical concept I felt so embarrassed within me that that God says, ALL LIARS GO TO HELL! Yes when we confess, God will forgive but it is a different story if we keep on doing it because we know that we will be forgiven in doing it. It is simply not acceptable!

[Higg-num]

I believe I'm beginning to understand. I thank everyone for their thoughts and patient explanations. Joeatmanilia , I intend this respectfully but I did not perceive anyone here advocating a " Change " to anything or anyones culture. Simply a definition of " Saving face ". MikeS, Honor is defined the same the world over. Though I concur with your view...Life is too dynamic in certain situations to demand an " Absolute " and total truth in every single scenario. I'll elaborate addressing Mrs. Daisy's comments if I may Sir.Mrs. Daisy, I am impressed with your understanding of scriptures. May I say I believe the Bible does in fact state that " these will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven......" Liars is one of the behaviors listed. However...Context is EVERYTHING as you have pointed out. We know we are to " Not judge least we be judged " but in the same paragraph in Matthew, Christ himself said ..." You will know them by their Fruits ". ( Behavior towards selflessness and evil deeds ) Also we know God commands us to share and be charitable. In the parable of the 10 Virgins; The 5 that had enough oil for there lamps did NOT share...Yet they were allowed in with the Bridegroom. "Context " The context of sharing was different because the situation or Dynamic was different. I hope my point is making sense.Allow me to try and further explain my point. Rahab LIED and it was " Counted as righteousness ". There are those who take scripture out of context and then claim it " Contradicts it's self " The irony is the very people who claim this are stating a falsehood themselves. LoL My point is ...YES. There are lies that are attached to ones on selfish gain or to save their own ego. These are the type of lies that The Lord detests. ( This is why I believe in Revelations Christ says " These will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. COWARDS....." ) Cowards and liars are often 1 and the same. These are the Child molesters, the murderers, Rapist of the world. No greater coward than the evil doers that hurt women , children or those that can't defend themselves ! Now perhaps an application of these scriptural truths. It is possible that a person could be " Honorable " & yet tell a white lie or by omission still be " Counted as righteous " so to speak.I " Lied " once to a known felon ( Drug dealer, thug with a sexual assault record ) who was ...or thought he had a life threatening gun shot wound. The police knew he had VERY important info that could ( and in fact did ) Led to the discovery /recovery of a missing child. I told him we could NOT render/allow medical assistance until he talked to the police investigators about the child abduction. We could not shut this man up ! How often do we encourage a child that failed miserably at a sport or school exam. We do not tell them they failed or how bad they failed If the child really did their best. We try and twist our words and deeds to something positive. It may not be a total lie BUT we are doing it for the greater benefit. Is this not " Honorable " ?Did I lose everyone or does this communicate my point about " Context " with Lies for selfish reasons or motives verses the truth / honor.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Higg-num

[Dave Hounddriver]

confess their sins in church then God says it ok

OK, My fault here for putting 'church' and God' in one sentence but the last two posts are heading towards a religious discussion which is not allowed on this forum. All future posts that may be considered religious in nature will be moderated or deleted. Thanks everyone for your understanding.

[Higg-num]

Dave, I understand completely. I was not sharing " Salvational " issues ( Sermon ) & thought I was with in the rules here. The fault is Mine. :unsure:Perhaps I should have used Stoic Philosophy as an example or at least , though it would be empty, an " ethical " theology. I was afraid of loosing the material point of " Context ". Also simply attempting to have " Saving Face " defined in order that one could determine between something noble and of little consequence. ( Application would be; " Honey...does this dress make me look fat ? " Kinda lie ) As opposed to an Evil lie ( Selfish or hurtful motives ) which usually has ( According to Human history ) much more harmful effects on innocent or trusting Humans.Now, did any of you guys ( Ladies ) " get " my point of context ? Or should I resolve myself to only comedic comments from henceforth. :hystery:Sincerely Higg-Nump.s. You know...Not as good looking as Magnum....but much more charming :) . Not as rich as Higgins...but not nearly as old either :tiphat: . Blame Jake for letting the " Cat out of the bag " on my cowboy name. : )

[Call me bubba]

There have been some drastic changes in the groups I mentioned above and what is acceptible in just their own actions now. I think that, in the very near future, we are going to see more and more changes to attitudes of the general public because of this. And this in turn will affect how people will react in regards to their "losing face".

I am Bob I do agree on this post. to a point.

1,However change of peoples attitudes will NOT OCCUR until they will make the 1st step. and they want to change/improve ones life

2.,The current way things are done are NO LONGER DONE( i will not discuss politics or the church-,,cough cough)

Edited September 11, 2012 by Call me Bubba

[MacBubba]

Perhaps there is a difference - saving face as opposed to saving skin. Saving skin might be more appropriate to describe the act of lying or making excuses to keep out of trouble. It is something a kid would do to avoid a scolding. Saving face goes somewhat deeper. My wife has told me that when dealing with Filipinos, try to go light on the criticism. With so much of the populace having endured poverty at one time or another, they have come to perhaps falsely value pride. If pride is all they have left, then they may be prepared to defend it (sometimes excessively).

It's also tied in with how closely they identify themselves with their families. If they lose face, they bring shame to their families. This is a sentiment that knows no social levels. It is shared by the rich and the poor.

MacBubba