Ellah Joy Case - Update

[Garpo]

I do understand that private prosecutors can assist in a murder case as was what I said in my post.

As far as who to believe between the prosecutor, defense, and media than at this point I have elected to not actually believe any of them. I certainly would not even make a guess as to if the couple are guilty or not. I do hope that the family and friends could obtain justice in the murder of this child.

I also know that I would not take for fact anything that is printed or said in the media or even worse than that by somebody that has an agenda and posting comments on an internet forum and other internet sites. But the great thing is that we all have the choice to believe who and what we want.

I would also think that the judge is not going to be very happy with either the prosecutor or defense for discussing the case with media after the judge had already ordered that no comments were to be made. If somebody form the media thought they overheard something that one or two of the lawyers were talking about then it would be hard to say that the lawyer or lawyers were in violation of the judges order.

[Jollygoodfellow]

Thank you Mark for the updates. :thumbsup:

[MikeB]

I also know that I would not take for fact anything that is printed or said in the media or even worse than that by somebody that has an agenda and posting comments on an internet forum and other internet sites. But the great thing is that we all have the choice to believe who and what we want.

Posting comments on Internet sites is not going to do much but if the "agenda" is trying to free an innocent person than I am all for it. If Mr Berger and Ms Esdrelon did not have an ironclad video recording of their whereabouts elsewhere when the crime was committed they would probably still be in jail, possibly for the rest of their lives. The prosecutors and police had decided they were the ones based upon the same kind of eyewitness evidence they have against the current two. And they still will not admit they made a mistake. If it could happen to them it could happen to you, or far worse, me.

[Mike S]

As usual it is high drama here in the Phils and the cops ... news media and prosecutors have stepped on their d*ck more than once .... first with the previous couple and now with the present ones ..... I can't see how the judge is allowing this circus to continue but I do see a way out for the cops now ...... if the prosecution stuffs up the case now it gives everyone a way out and still save face ..... they can all point fingers .... scratch heads and look innocent of any wrong doing ..... the cops ... prosecution ... judge and news media can each just blame the other parties for the bungled up mess and walk away with the all important saving face ...... I wonder who they will go after the next time ..... or maybe just drop the case each one claiming "we had the guilty party but someone else stuffed it up ..... just not me" ...... and once again the real murderer goes un punished here in the Philippines ..... ahhhhhh ..... justice at is finest ....... IMHO ...... :angry: :th_unfair:

[Garpo]

I have to agree with Mike S in the most part. There is just nobody that is creditable in this entire mess. Prosecution and defense lawyers trying to gain the upper hand in media pressure which should not but is a very important tactic in the Philippines. They will often go so far as to pay people to promote guilt or innocence in the media (including internet sites). These people will mislead and report information as facts when actually they are far from it. I have no problem with giving opinions but it is a problem when opinions are reported as facts.

The media certainly can not be trusted or considered creditable for the obvious reasons.

I have no idea as to the guilt or innocence of this couple but the police have already arrested one wrong couple so to say that they now have the right ones can not be considered as very likely. The sad thing is that there is a woman that may or may not be guilty sitting in jail during these incredibly long drawn out procedures. If she was out on bail then it would not be so bad. But, she had the chance to do that and fled, changed her appearance and used a false name while none of which makes her guilty of murder but does put doubt on her showing up for trial if released from jail on bail. Don't know if they have and can use ankle tracking and monitoring devises here in the Philippines but that could and would be something that would be more humane.

Just my opinion

[Markham]

I do understand that private prosecutors can assist in a murder case as was what I said in my post.

You also said that private prosecutors can not try a murder case which is exactly what they are doing. None of the State's prosecutors - and there are usually 3 or 4 of them present - have said anything at all in court apart from "appearing for the State, your Honour" at the start of each session.

I do hope that the family and friends could obtain justice in the murder of this child.

What if it emerges that someone in the family was responsible for her death? Statistically that's an odds-on favourite.

I also know that I would not take for fact anything that is printed or said in the media or even worse than that by somebody that has an agenda and posting comments on an internet forum and other internet sites. But the great thing is that we all have the choice to believe who and what we want.

My agenda - if I even have one - is to report the facts. I drafted the Press Release on behalf of the Defence, as soon as I had spoken with the Defence lawyers and the Court Observer. That release is factually correct in every detail.

I would also think that the judge is not going to be very happy with either the prosecutor or defense for discussing the case with media after the judge had already ordered that no comments were to be made. If somebody form the media thought they overheard something that one or two of the lawyers were talking about then it would be hard to say that the lawyer or lawyers were in violation of the judges order.

The Judge ordered both sides not to give details of testimony to the press or other parties. The Defence continues to obey that rule but certain on the prosecution side have consistently ignored it right from day one.

Prosecution and defense lawyers trying to gain the upper hand in media pressure which should not but is a very important tactic in the Philippines.

Apart from the fact that the Defence team has said very little publicly, you think that this doesn't happen in other jurisdictions? What about the US - I well remember the OJ Simpson Trial where both sides were scoring points off each other in the media. Such a circus does not take place in the UK however, where when the accused is charged, sub-judice rules apply until the end of the trial and only factual reporting of the trial can be made, subject to the Judge's consent.

They will often go so far as to pay people to promote guilt or innocence in the media (including internet sites). These people will mislead and report information as facts when actually they are far from it. I have no problem with giving opinions but it is a problem when opinions are reported as facts.

The media certainly can not be trusted or considered creditable for the obvious reasons.

Are you levelling this as an accusation?

If she was out on bail then it would not be so bad. But, she had the chance to do that and fled, changed her appearance and used a false name while none of which makes her guilty of murder but does put doubt on her showing up for trial if released from jail on bail.

No she didn't. Murder is a non-bailable offence unless it can be proven that the evidence against the accused is so weak that it is unlikely a conviction would be obtained in trial. It is because this Judge believes that the Prosecution probably has no substantial case that she is holding a Bail Hearing.

[Garpo]

Mark,

You indicate that you prepare your reports based on information that you receive from the defense team and a media outlet. Yet you report things as facts. I don't know how you can report things as facts if you were not even in the court room to hear the testimony. Your reports are no more creditable than a report by the prosecution. Everything you are reporting is just hearsay based on others telling you what they want you say..

So let me get this straight, the defense is obeying the judges order yet they have people like you posting information on their behalf. It would seem to me that, that is in itself a violation of the judges order.

I have never once stated that I felt that this couple was guilty of anything and that I only hoped for justice and closure for the family and friends of this young girl. It makes no difference to me if it turns out that a member of the family may have even been involved. That being said, I do not accept people as reporting facts when they do not actually know it is a fact. If you do in fact have a member of the defense team giving you information then I would believe that you should give the name of the person that is giving you that information that you report as facts. I would suggest that you also use unedited quotes.

This by no means is a post to try and sway people to believe either the prosecution or media outlets over the defense lawyers but just another opinion as to why I choose not to believe any of them and will just wait until the judge makes rulings.

You certainly have the right to believe whoever you want to and I respect your opinions but only as they are opinions, not that they are facts.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Garpo

[Old55]

Both of you (Garpo and Markham) have interesting opinions. I respect how you both are providing differing ideas. I don't think we will ever know the truth or facts in this case.

[MikeB]

You certainly have the right to believe whoever you want to and I respect your opinions but only as they are opinions, not that they are facts.

Rather then just stating over and over that these are "opinions" not "facts", do you have anything substantive to offer, even an opinion, that what the poster has written is not the truth? And since you brought up "agendas" in your previous post, what is the agenda of the police and Prosecution - to find the true perpetrator(s) of this despicable crime? Sorry, the arrest and charges of kidnapping and homicide against the previous couple (fact) suggest otherwise (opinion).

[Markham]

You indicate that you prepare your reports based on information that you receive from the defense team and a media outlet.

No I didn't say that, I used the term "Court Observer". The two roles are completely different.

I really can't be bothered to address the remaining points in your post. You have made four contributions to this thread and simply repeat yourself - that you don't believe anyone.

If you do in fact have a member of the defense team giving you information then I would believe that you should give the name of the person that is giving you that information that you report as facts. I would suggest that you also use unedited quotes.

These are requirements of this Forum? Fine, then as you are a Moderator, kindly delete this entire thread and I won't bother posting here ever again.