Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters

[Mike S]

As to the US involvement I do believe if memory serves me that we were asked to come into both countries as well as the present countries we are involved with ..... I can't think of any recent military deployments where the US just decided to take over the situation ..... now it may not be a very popular decision with the people of the country or the people of ANY other country but the government of that country MUST ASK FOR HELP ...... which was asked in both Vietnam and here in the Philippines .....

Now as to my personal feelings on if we should be there or not .... the way I look at it is if you can't fight your own internal battles than the bigger dog wins ...... unless it is another country trying to take over a smaller one (like China and the Philippines) and I only say that because the big dog would own it all ..... but internal strife ...... sorry Jack ... your on your own ..... can't control your so called freedom fighters your problem ..... if your so called freedom fighters manage to take over your country we'll deal with them if they cross international boundaries ...... as long as they confine themselves to their countries borders let them enjoy their spoils ..... your problem not ours ..... IMHO :cheersty:

[Jake]

I know I am going to catch some flak for this but here goes anyway! :bash:

Not sure that I understand why the US, UK or any army from any country needs to be here or anywhere else that is not their own sovereign soil! :1927_:

Lots of reasons for this, but most of all, just like with some of my relatives. If you do it for them, they will never do it for themselves!!! :omg:

And besides, who says my way of thinking is better than theirs in their own country?

Stay to providing protection in your own backyard and stay out of everyone elses!!! :89:

Unless of course they are asking for help, and then make a measured choice of what, how many and how long, and stick to it!!!

There will always be groups willing to take advantage of others, and do so usually for money and not religious or political reasons, those are just the smoke and mirrors, or sugar coating to disguise who they really are.

They are everywhere, in the US, UK and yes the Philippines.

Besides, I am not sure that the US or any other country can do a better job of getting rid of groups of thugs like these, anymore than they were successful at doing so in Vietnam! :728:

sh&t, am I in for it now!!!! :bonk:

Maybe wasn't such a good idea to come back and post after all.

Sorry if I offended anyone as it was not my intention, and most of all just wanted to say, glad your son is out,, and did so before anything bad happened to him or anyone else.

Papa Carl

I appreciate your opinion Papa Carl -- much of it certain got a nod from me. I totally agree that the host

government should officially ask for any foreign military to assist them. For example, Operation Urgent

Fury in our invasion of Granada. I think it was righteous thing to do by kicking out the Cuban military

and saving the American medical students.

On the other hand, Vietnam war was a wasted sacrifice of men (both sides) and machine. I personally

think we lost that war. There are some heated discussions about Irag and Afghanistan having similar

consequences.

As I mentioned before, employing special ops of both foreign and host military strike teams that could

surgically terminate high value targets, can and will get the job done eventually. No need for battalion

size boots on the ground trying to chase a few rebels. I have personally met the indigenous people of

the Negrito tribe guarding the jungles around the US Naval Base in Subic. Absolutely no one ever came

through the back door.

My favorite columnist Ramon Tulfo of the Philippine Daily Inquirer wrote an article about saving the victims

of rebel kidnappers: kidnap their relatives as well! It's call the Law of the Jungle.

[Papa Carl]

Thank for your comment Jake, I know that when it comes to this subject it can get very heated, and some times is difficult to keep your emotions in check.

Not everyone understands or agrees with my view, and I respect that so long as they allow me to disagree with their views.

You know, agree to disagree and move on to other things that we may agree on!

All the best

Papa Carl

[Okieboy]

the problem is if the USA does not do it who will, WWII was not our fight but if not for the USA where would you be now Papa Carl, how we forget the sons of Americans buried all over the world who gave their lives, that others can be free, just because in the last few years things don't go the way you like, to hell with America, but when the time comes for help who do you call on, My father stuck it out for you, not because he was interested in your cause, but because he was an American, when you are called you go, maybe it is because all real Americans love a good fight, you don't get to pick your fights, Americans will never loose a war because of the fighting men , it will be because men that dont have the will to finish what was started, the vietnam war could have been over in days if left to the Military, as far as the thugs here in the Philippines they will be taken care of you will see that for sure.

[i am bob]

My turn to get into hot water...

The US did not join WWII until after Pearl Harbour - and when it became your fight too. And, yes, all other countries have our war dead all over the world too! There are a heck of a lot more Canadians that were killed and buried in Europe than Americans yet we have a much smaller population to draw from. And how many from the brave countries in the Southern Hemisphere are in the same position? I would hate to think how many other countries suffered the same fate!

I do agree that the men and women who serve are there not because they don't want to be but because they feel they need to be there. To protect the innocent.. The weak... The oppressed... That is true of just about every country! I'm sorry but it's insulting to the rest of the world's military when someone stands up and says "Only we..."

[Old55]

Canadian Statistics WW2

http://www.canadaatwar.ca/content-7/world-war-ii/facts-and-information/

Casualties Europe total (dead and wonded) 75,514*

Total deaths Canadian forces WW2……….24,615

Total death per population 0.40%

US forces dead Europe 185,924**

US forces Total Death 416,800

Total Death per population 0.32%

• Canada
  The Commonwealth War Graves Commission lists 45,383 war dead.^[159] is the source of the military dead for the British Empireincluding 102 deaths from Newfoundland with the Canadian forces.^[160] The Canadian War Museum puts military losses at 42,000 plus 1,600 Merchant Navy deaths^[161] The Canadian Virtual War Memorial contains a registry of information about the graves and memorials of Canadians and Newfoundlanders who served valiantly and gave their lives for their country^[162]
  The preliminary 1945 data for Canadian losses was killed 37,476, missing 1,843, wounded 53,174 and POW 9,045.^[136]
  

** United States

Total U. S. military deaths in battle and from other causes were 416,837 The breakout by service is as follows, Army 318,274^[114] Navy 62,614,^[114] Marine Corps 24,511^[114] United States Coast Guard 1,917.^[348][349] and United States Merchant Marine 9,521.^[140][350]

Deaths in battle were 292,131. The breakout by service is as follows: Army 234,874^[114] Navy 36,950,^[114] Marine Corps 19,733^[114] United States Coast Guard 574.^[268][348] These losses were incurred during the period 12/1/41 until 12/31/46 including an additional 126 men in October 1941 when the USS Kearny and the USS Reuben James were attacked by U-Boats. The United States Army Air Forces losses, which are included in the Army total, were 52,173 deaths due to combat and 35,946 from non combat causes^[116] U.S. Combat Dead by Theater of war - Europe-Atlantic 183,588; Army ground forces 141,088; United States Army Air Forces 36,461 and Navy/Coast Guard 6,039; Asia-Pacific 108,504; Army ground forces 41,592; United States Army Air Forces 15,694; Navy/Coast Guard 31,485; Marine Corps 19,733. Unidentified Theatres- Army 39^[116][139] Included with combat deaths are 14,059 POWs, in Europe (1,124) and (12,935) in Asia^[139] The details of U.S. casualties are listed online: The US Army^[116] The U.S. Army Air Force^[351] The U.S. Navy and Marine Corps.^[352] The U.S. Merchant Marine^[140]

Civilian dead were 1,704 American civilians interned, by the Japanese(1,536) and by Germany(168),.^{[353][354][355]} During the Attack on Pearl Harbor 68 U.S. civilians were killed by friendly fire,^[356] and 6 U.S. civilians were killed in Oregon in 1945 by Japanese balloon bombs.^[357]

The names of individual U.S. military personnel killed in World War II can be found at the U.S. National Archives^[358]

The names of U.S. Merchant Mariners killed in World War II are listed by USMM.org^[359]

American Battle Monuments Commission website lists the names of military and civilian war dead from World War II buried in ABMC cemeteries or listed on Walls of the Missing^[360]

[Old55]

Bob, one death was too many for so small (population) a country. The Canadian forces in Europe fought very bravely. I have a book to do with Mark Clark (HIS) Fifth Army and the Canadian fight in Italy a great and tragic story that has little attention brought to it. I'll PM you the book and author when I find it.

Not in hot water Bob, you being one who served much of his life!

Edited August 24, 2012 by Old55

[Papa Carl]

I knew this might create a few differences of opinions, but hey isn't that what makes life fun!

Remember in my original comment I pointed no fingers at any individual or country.

However I do feel the need to respond to some comments directed at me.

As far as "if the Americans won't do it, who will", that is my point!

No one hopefully, then we can all stay at home unless the threat comes to us on our own soil!

As Bob has correctly stated the US got into WWII because they were attacked, in fact it was Hawaii that was attacked, which by the way was taken by the US under force, (but hey lets not get into that one).

The US certainly did not get into WWII on my behalf?

Sons, Fathers, Sisters, and Brothers of many nations died during WWII not just Americans. My Grandfather and Uncle were just two of many who gave their lives for what they believed in.

Most went to war for the same reasons as well, not because they had to.

And lets not forget, the US was against getting involved with WWII lead by politicians like Joe Kenedy Sr., until they were attacked.

Which I give them full credit for! Why get involved in a fight that is not yours, until of course it becomes yours, or it comes to you.

I do agree that if left to the military, Vietnam would likely have had a different outcome, but then the US was and is a Democracy and not a Military ruled country.

It was the politicians who got the US involved in Vietnam and the politicians who tied the hands of the military behind their backs to fight that war, so it is no surprise that it ended in such a mess. What doesn't end in a mess when politicians of any nation get involved! Ha

We don't really want to get into a discussion of all the places in the world that the US has been involved either covertly or overtly militarily, whether by invitation or not. One thinks of places in Central and South America, along with the Middle East and Africa, for that matter all around the globe.

Problem is when you think your way is the only way, and that you have the right to inflict your way on other people, it eventually comes back to bite you.

Follow history, all great nations thought they had that right, and look what happened to all of them, or do you think it will be any different with the US?

I don't want this to get into a tit for tat about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

I don't see it as being that black and white, and I certainly am not pointing a finger at anyone person or country as history dictates there have been many people and countries who thought they had the right to inflict their values on others.

I was simply stating my views to the original comment, and meant no harm or insult to anyone.

I also hope that no one is offended or insulted by my views as it was not my intention to do so.

Stating that, I do have the right to state my views so long as I am not attacking or insulting other members..., correct?

Papa Carl

[Old55]

Papa Carl, you did not start anything, it's all good! :thumbsup:

It was my thought when starting this topic there could be some discussion to do with outside intervention the lack of Filipino political will and initiative by the AFP. Forum members we have now are able to disagree but in a nice way its been awhile now everyone can play nice. That's what I like about this forum.