Good Idea... But For The Wrong Reasons.

[Bruce]

Bob...

 

I am not commenting on the 'intent' of the law, just the shallow and false reason for the law (not to protect people, but to get off a negative list held by the US government).

 

Further, ANY TIME the police or investigatiors et al are given a 'free pass' to do as they please under the guise of 'acting in good faith' in any country it is a bad idea. For example, if 'Romeo' is suspected of stealing his employer's money', he goes to jail and the process starts of an investigation. However, if poor Romeo is suspected of sex with a local 17 yr old, who then ran away from her abusive strict family, and the police thought Romeo knew where she went, then, under the new law, Romeo can be beaten to death during questioning and the police are immune from any case his family brings due to the 'acting in good faith clause in the law'. Because, well you know, she is a minor and might be in danger so, you know, we, the popo, figure he knew where she was, and well, we are police officers and not doctors, so we did not reconize he was so seriously injured. Sorry... but we were acting in good faith... just ask my cousin / uncle / god father, the captain! Right captain?   

 

No checks and balances are in place for the average person who can not hire an attorney to explore the condut of the police.  

 

As for the recruitment companies and the governmental regulations, well on a personal level, I find them offensive. It assumes and treats the average Pinoy / Pinay as incompetent children.

 

Of course I am a Kano. If I want to work on an oil rig in Saudi and I pass the physical requirements and can get the job, the US government has no business telling me I can't go or that I can not approve my own wages.

 

Domestic worker abuses? Sure there are. But it is a situation of supply and demand. If woman A will not do 'it', climb the alphabet and I am sure that woman C or H or J will do 'it' whatever 'it' may be.  While the domestic worker laws again have good intentions, in reality they are simply a burden and barrier to be hired. Instead use common sense! As a woman, do not work in muslim countries! That alone would stop a huge amount of abuses. In the US, Canada or Europe, any woman can go to any police officer on patrol and state she is being abused and that should start the process to stop the abuse.  

[i am bob]

The whole point in the law is to protect the people who need protecting the most.

 

I agree with this, but sometimes there are unintended consequences. Canadian families were hiring caregivers from the Phiippines and other countries to help care for their young children as nannies or for older parents. The rules were fairly lax and they were more or less private arrangements between families and caregivers with placement agencies as intermediaries. Then there were highly publicized abuse cases. Although few in numbers, the do-gooders went wild over the exploitation of women. For example, they were not given day-offs. The Filipina woment were treated like "slaves" forced to work twelve hours a day for under minimum wage.

 

Rules were tightened. A new bureaucracy was created. Families now had to pay the minimum wage of the province, pay overtime, give the caregivers day offs, etc. The unintended consequence is the families could no longer afford caregivers. The number of new hires plummented.

 

Using the cruise industry as a parallel example, the contracts are ten months; twelve hours a day; no day-offs during the contract period. You are given cramped quarters in the bottom of the ship; three meals and snacks; uniforms you had to wash and iron during your off hours; and by US standards, a lousy wage. Filipinos and other nationals fight to get jobs on cruise liners. Why agree to these working conditions? The reason is wages are five to ten times better than at home and the working conditions at home are worse.

 

The do-gooders in Canada won at the expense of those whom they were trying to protect against exploitation. (I still like the Canadians.)

Canada has and always has had a number of young women who work as Nannies.  To train as a "Care Giver" has been one of the highest demand vocational courses for quite a few years.  So to have all these people looking for work in their home country of Canada but not able to find work was getting to be too much.  Filipinos (and others) were coming into Canada and working for a lot less than what the government mandated as the minimum wage.  And that was why it was stopped.  Not the "Canadian Do-Gooder" but people trying to get work at home and losing out to foreigners who were not only working for slave wages but a great majority were also working "under the table" so to speak.  JJ, you wouldn't let somebody set up a Real Estate office next to yours in Hawaii under these conditions, would you?  $25 commission for every house sold?  You would go broke - and then who would be at fault?   Isn't that the same as what was happening in Canada?

 

 I see nothing wrong with somebody going to another country to work but it has to be fair to those who already live there!  

[i am bob]

Bob...

 

I am not commenting on the 'intent' of the law, just the shallow and false reason for the law (not to protect people, but to get off a negative list held by the US government).

 

Further, ANY TIME the police or investigatiors et al are given a 'free pass' to do as they please under the guise of 'acting in good faith' in any country it is a bad idea. For example, if 'Romeo' is suspected of stealing his employer's money', he goes to jail and the process starts of an investigation. However, if poor Romeo is suspected of sex with a local 17 yr old, who then ran away from her abusive strict family, and the police thought Romeo knew where she went, then, under the new law, Romeo can be beaten to death during questioning and the police are immune from any case his family brings due to the 'acting in good faith clause in the law'. Because, well you know, she is a minor and might be in danger so, you know, we, the popo, figure he knew where she was, and well, we are police officers and not doctors, so we did not reconize he was so seriously injured. Sorry... but we were acting in good faith... just ask my cousin / uncle / god father, the captain! Right captain?   

 

No checks and balances are in place for the average person who can not hire an attorney to explore the condut of the police.  

 

As for the recruitment companies and the governmental regulations, well on a personal level, I find them offensive. It assumes and treats the average Pinoy / Pinay as incompetent children.

 

Of course I am a Kano. If I want to work on an oil rig in Saudi and I pass the physical requirements and can get the job, the US government has no business telling me I can't go or that I can not approve my own wages.

 

Domestic worker abuses? Sure there are. But it is a situation of supply and demand. If woman A will not do 'it', climb the alphabet and I am sure that woman C or H or J will do 'it' whatever 'it' may be.  While the domestic worker laws again have good intentions, in reality they are simply a burden and barrier to be hired. Instead use common sense! As a woman, do not work in muslim countries! That alone would stop a huge amount of abuses. In the US, Canada or Europe, any woman can go to any police officer on patrol and state she is being abused and that should start the process to stop the abuse.  

Oh, come on, Bruce!  That isn't what the law says.  Your example of Romeo would still have the police in a lot of trouble and facing criminal prosecution / jail time if they attempted to do such a thing.  And, for a country where OFWs are one of the principle sources of income in a poorer country?  To provide a little protection for those who give up a lot to leave their homes in order to try and provide a better life for their families is a good thing - not an evil government ploy.  For the government to try and improve things for their citizens is not something you see in every country every day but I think the Philippines is heading in the right direction.  Sure, it's not perfect but nothing is.  And it is better than that which was there before it.

[JJReyes]

$25 commission for every house sold? You would go broke - and then who would be at fault? Isn't that the same as what was happening in Canada?

 

Actually, there are many new discount real estate companies. They will sell your house for a fixed price of say $1,500 irregardless of value instead of a 3% Seller's commission. The owner still has to pay 3% commision to Buyer's agent. You get what you pay for. There is ittle or no services. Seller does all the work, including finding the Buyer.

 

Does Canada produce a sufficient number of nannies and caregivers at a reasonable price to meet the demand? We can get a caregiver in the United States from a placement agency, but the cost is $4,000 a month. They have a certificate after 8 weeks of vocational training. A high school diploma is not a requirement. The ability to read, speak and write in English is not a requirement. 

The work is 5 days, 40 hours a weeks. If I am an invalid or bedridden, that's extra. The placement agency can also arrange 24/7 care, but that will cost more than $10,000 a month.

 

Tightening of Canadian labor laws actually works in my favor. If the United States won't permit entry of foreign caregivers to care for seniors, why not transfer the seniors in need of care to the Philippines? I am not sure if this is possible with Canada because the country is prosperous and they have lots of money for the care of seniors. As the number of Canadian seniors increase and costs start to skyrocket, overseas retirement care could become a new business opportunity. Bob, you may want to look into this. Send me a PM and I will share information on the marketing strategy.  

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618973-swedish-proposition-send-the-elderly-to-thailand-services-are-cheaper/ was sent by a colleague in Bangkok whose group is into medical tourism and elder care. Their market are Germans and Dutch.

 

 

[Bruce]

Bob...

 

I am not commenting on the 'intent' of the law, just the shallow and false reason for the law (not to protect people, but to get off a negative list held by the US government).

 

Further, ANY TIME the police or investigatiors et al are given a 'free pass' to do as they please under the guise of 'acting in good faith' in any country it is a bad idea. For example, if 'Romeo' is suspected of stealing his employer's money', he goes to jail and the process starts of an investigation. However, if poor Romeo is suspected of sex with a local 17 yr old, who then ran away from her abusive strict family, and the police thought Romeo knew where she went, then, under the new law, Romeo can be beaten to death during questioning and the police are immune from any case his family brings due to the 'acting in good faith clause in the law'. Because, well you know, she is a minor and might be in danger so, you know, we, the popo, figure he knew where she was, and well, we are police officers and not doctors, so we did not reconize he was so seriously injured. Sorry... but we were acting in good faith... just ask my cousin / uncle / god father, the captain! Right captain?   

 

No checks and balances are in place for the average person who can not hire an attorney to explore the condut of the police.  

 

As for the recruitment companies and the governmental regulations, well on a personal level, I find them offensive. It assumes and treats the average Pinoy / Pinay as incompetent children.

 

Of course I am a Kano. If I want to work on an oil rig in Saudi and I pass the physical requirements and can get the job, the US government has no business telling me I can't go or that I can not approve my own wages.

 

Domestic worker abuses? Sure there are. But it is a situation of supply and demand. If woman A will not do 'it', climb the alphabet and I am sure that woman C or H or J will do 'it' whatever 'it' may be.  While the domestic worker laws again have good intentions, in reality they are simply a burden and barrier to be hired. Instead use common sense! As a woman, do not work in muslim countries! That alone would stop a huge amount of abuses. In the US, Canada or Europe, any woman can go to any police officer on patrol and state she is being abused and that should start the process to stop the abuse.  

Oh, come on, Bruce!  That isn't what the law says.  Your example of Romeo would still have the police in a lot of trouble and facing criminal prosecution / jail time if they attempted to do such a thing.  And, for a country where OFWs are one of the principle sources of income in a poorer country?  To provide a little protection for those who give up a lot to leave their homes in order to try and provide a better life for their families is a good thing - not an evil government ploy.  For the government to try and improve things for their citizens is not something you see in every country every day but I think the Philippines is heading in the right direction.  Sure, it's not perfect but nothing is.  And it is better than that which was there before it.

 

Wow! Although you are a Canadian... I am betting you still voted for Obama. Your argument is his argument for bigger government.

 

To me, it just sounds so demeaning to the 'little people'.  I once saw an article about Israel that stated the US could not have it both ways. Is Israel a pet or colony under the protection of the US? Or, is Israel a stand alone country and an ally of the US? Two very different views of a 'subject' or an 'equal' in views.

 

If you follow the Pinoy news, there is currently 12+ police officers charged with murder for killing 13 drug / gambling gang members AND their plain clothes police protection guys, at a traffic stop. This was an 'approved' action by their commander. And... this was with out the benifit of this new law we are talking about with the free pass of acting in good faith.

 

This 'I was following orders' soon to have 'I was acting in good faith' added to it in future similar occurances will be used from the bottom up to justify what happened. While this was an extreme example, when humans are involved and egos.... telling a government employee that they are basically immune from any action IF they are acting in good faith.... is asking for bad news.

 

I will PM you a small bit of info that is not  suitable for the open forum so you can do some back end research.   

[i am bob]

Does Canada produce a sufficient number of nannies and caregivers at a reasonable price to meet the demand?

 

I think the more pertinent question is "Are there sufficient Canadians willing to work in this field?"  You have to throw out all other variables including what the cost will be, what the workers will be paid, etc because the answer will reflect if overseas workers (ie: OFWs) should be brought in to fill vacancies.  If the Canadians who are trained in this work can not find work in their field, it should not be open to others to come in at lower wages and force more Canadians out of work.  Kind of like what the Philippines does - you aren't a Philippine citizen?  You ain't gonna work there.

 

I will say this though - the average Canadian worker is getting paid too much for what they do and are driving costs too high too quickly.  And for the Care Giver field?  You will probably do very well in the future if you accept Canadians.

[i am bob]

Here you go Bruce!  I would have done this a lot sooner but I was kind of busy and didn't have time to read the new Act completely until today.

 

You were worried about the part of the new Act where a cop could just beat you into saying you were guilty and then not have to worry about reprisal?

 

From: http://www.iacat.net/index.php/94-republic-act-no-10364-or-the-expanded-anti-trafficking-in-persons-act-of-2012

 

SEC. 20. A new Section 17-C is hereby inserted into Republic Act No. 9208, to read as follows:

 

“SEC. 17-C. Immunity from Suit, Prohibited Acts and Injunctive Remedies. – No action or suit shall be brought, instituted or maintained in any court or tribunal or before any other authority against any: (a) law enforcement officer; (b) social worker; or © person acting in compliance with a lawful order from any of the above, for lawful acts done or statements made during an authorized rescue operation, recovery or rehabilitation/intervention, or an investigation or prosecution of an anti-trafficking case: Provided, That such acts shall have been made in good faith.

“The prosecution of retaliatory suits against victims of trafficking shall be held in abeyance pending final resolution and decision of criminal complaint for trafficking.

(Note - the highlighting and underlining above are mine)

And who decides all the little things like investigating, arresting and so forth?

 

(Same reference) 

 

SEC. 15. Section 16 of Republic Act No. 9208 is hereby amended to read as follows:

 

“(g) Philippine National Police (PNP) and National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) – shall be the primary law enforcement agencies to undertake surveillance, investigation and arrest of individuals or persons suspected to be engaged in trafficking. They shall closely coordinate with each other and with other law enforcement agencies to secure concerted efforts for effective investigation and apprehension of suspected traffickers. They shall also establish a system to receive complaints and calls to assist trafficked persons and conduct rescue operations.

 

Now we know the PNP are a lot more professional than many of the local police and they are going to be the ones in charge.  And they have to answer to a more demanding authority along with having a lot more over-sight regarding their actions.  Regardless, if you are worried that this gives them free reign, it does not.  The last line added above (Provided, That such acts shall have been made in good faith.) is there to ensure that the police are suppose to do their jobs properly.  They want to beat somebody?  They are liable.  Trump up charges?  They are liable.  One little line helps keep the overbearing authority figures at bay.  By the way, the issues in A that you spoke of in your PM?  Hopefully this will prevent them from happening without proper evidence.

 

In your last post, you are speaking of the ambush.  This was suppose to be in co-operation with the PNP.  The PNP said no - do not do this as it is illegal.  The local police chief said "Up yours - I"m the Police Chief" and proceeded to ambush and kill the others.  That is why they are now being charged and going to court where hopefully they won't be seen or heard from for a long time again after the trial is over.

[TheMason]

The whole point in the law is to protect the people who need protecting the most.

 

I agree with this, but sometimes there are unintended consequences. Canadian families were hiring caregivers from the Phiippines and other countries to help care for their young children as nannies or for older parents. The rules were fairly lax and they were more or less private arrangements between families and caregivers with placement agencies as intermediaries. Then there were highly publicized abuse cases. Although few in numbers, the do-gooders went wild over the exploitation of women. For example, they were not given day-offs. The Filipina woment were treated like "slaves" forced to work twelve hours a day for under minimum wage.

 

Rules were tightened. A new bureaucracy was created. Families now had to pay the minimum wage of the province, pay overtime, give the caregivers day offs, etc. The unintended consequence is the families could no longer afford caregivers. The number of new hires plummented.

 

Using the cruise industry as a parallel example, the contracts are ten months; twelve hours a day; no day-offs during the contract period. You are given cramped quarters in the bottom of the ship; three meals and snacks; uniforms you had to wash and iron during your off hours; and by US standards, a lousy wage. Filipinos and other nationals fight to get jobs on cruise liners. Why agree to these working conditions? The reason is wages are five to ten times better than at home and the working conditions at home are worse.

 

The do-gooders in Canada won at the expense of those whom they were trying to protect against exploitation. (I still like the Canadians.)

 

So, what's your point? That immigrant families should be permitted to exploit people from their native land without any govt. interference? Families now have to pay minimum wage, give days off, and pay OT when its worked? The horror!!

 

I think that's a good thing. If those families in Canada want to exploit cheap labor, they should move back to the Philippines. There's plenty of people there that they can pay peanuts to care for their elderly.

[Jollygoodfellow]

:attention:

 

Tightening of Canadian labor laws actually works in my favor. If the United States won't permit entry of foreign caregivers to care for seniors, why not transfer the seniors in need of care to the Philippines? I am not sure if this is possible with Canada because the country is prosperous and they have lots of money for the care of seniors. As the number of Canadian seniors increase and costs start to skyrocket, overseas retirement care could become a new business opportunity. Bob, you may want to look into this. Send me a PM and I will share information on the marketing strategy.    

 

Again I don't want every topic to turn into overseas retirement. Please restrain from the damn thing in every topic I read.

 

Wow! Although you are a Canadian... I am betting you still voted for Obama. Your argument is his argument for bigger government.

 

Another political suggestion and I will close the topic or remove the offenders from it.

 

:3_12_31[1]:   now back to your regular viewing 

[JJReyes]

Again I don't want every topic to turn into overseas retirement. Please restrain from the damn thing in every topic I read.

 

Sorry. I tend to be one track minded. I wake up at 3:30am and spend the first two hours researching or answering emails on the subject. This affects my thinking process for the rest of the day.