A Favorite Airline?

[robert k]

Sounds like you got a great fare. What is the total elapsed time of the trip?

[MacBubba]

I pretty much breezed through the airport in Manila

That's always been my experience.

[Lou49]

I like Korean Air and I like Incheon airport but I hate the 12 hour layover on the return leg from Cebu to Vancouver.

[BrettGC]

I've never really had a problem at NAIA, clearing immigration is no faster or slower than anywhere else really and much faster than entering LAX as a non-resident.  As for taxi's, look for plain cars with stickers that have clearance for all 3 terminals, these guys are authorised operators and no more expensive than the metered cars if you negotiate; you'll understand what I mean when you see them.  It's a safety thing and I once paid only 2000PHP for the two hour trip to AC to visit the ex when we were still together.  It is even cheaper if you have a local lady meet you at the airport and haggle for you ;).  You can change cash and buy a local sim just after immigration if you have the need.  Oddly enough, I've often received my best exchange rates at NAIA, weird I know, but there it is. :chickendance: If you're not on a timetable, head to the domestic terminal and buy your forwarding ticket there, I like Cebu Pacific and flights purchased within PI are much cheaper than when purchased online in my experience and they leave regularly.  If you end up staying longer than 29 days, or any period for that matter, remember to carry a copy of your itinerary with your return flight details with you so A.  You can actually board a plane to PI (some airlines won't let you board at the point of origin unless you can prove you're going to be leaving PI) and B.  If you wish to extend your visa out to 59 days upon arrival; it's pretty hit or miss as to whether or not the immigration will ask you for this but better to err on the side of caution.  There's been talk of them now allowing you to show them electronically on your phone/tablet recently but I'd not leave this to chance. 

 

When departing the country remember to keep a couple of thousand PHP with you to pay the "airport use tax".  I think it was 550PHP last time I was there.  You pay it immediately after check-in on your way to the lounges near departure immigration.  They don't accept foreign currency.  There is a second chance to pay it on the concourse to the the departure lounges, show your receipt stub from the first spot and all will be good.  There's a smoking area in the bar if you're so inclined. 

 

Last time I was visited probably about 45mins from exiting the aircraft to arriving outside, and that was with buying some PHP and a new sim on the way out.  Departure procedures took about 1 hour; check-in, immigration, airport tax etc which isn't too bad considering the Singapore Airlines check-in line was nearly out the door.

 

That's about all the practical information I can think of about NAIA.  Have a great trip mate and good luck!!

Edited March 11, 2014 by BrettGC

[lifeasisrael]

Sounds like you got a great fare. What is the total elapsed time of the trip?

22 hours going. 2 stops. SF 90 MINUTES KOREA 3 HOURS

Coming back though 10 hour stop in Korea, but I hear very nice airport with lots to do.

We'll see.

[gmb8585]

I take Korean air as well. As for the 12 hours layover on the return leg to vancouver, ask for a hotel voucher and they will put you up in the hyatt right by the airport and give you a voucher for lunch as well. Call KA about a week  before departure to set this up. Also with Korean I always request emergency exit seats when I check in and always get one at no charge. 

[SubicSteve]

 

Every one here will have their own opinion.  I stick with Delta/Singapore Airlines and Cathay(EXTREMELY experienced pilots).  I wouldn't take Korean airlines or ANY of their subsidiaries if you gave me a free ticket. 

Wow. I have truly appreicated all of the replies. But I must say I was MOST intrigued by yours Steve. I would have to say that the majority folks here and just in my research favor Korean Air and it is one that I am considering. Saw a few thing on youtube and looks ok. I REALLY want to go CX but I am really scared about all that I have heard about the damn seats!!!! lol. But PLEASE tell me why if I walked up to YOU with and gave you a FREE TICKET on Korean Air you would NOT take it, my friend? Let me in on what I amay be missing.

:-)

 

 

 

"After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the 747-400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it is a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.

One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it; and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.

We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain so-and-so was.

Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested Radar Vectors to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then Cleared for the approach and he could have selected Exit Hold and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Of course, he failed to Extend the FAF and he couldnt understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was Hold at XYZ. Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).

This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!

The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.

The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!

Finally, I'll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.

Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 ft after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck."

 

 

 

 

The culture at KAL is one of privilege.  You dare not disrespect or question someone who outranks you.  I'll always pay more for a ticket or fly on an airline with less legroom as long as I know the guys sitting in the cockpit are an experienced crew working together to get me to my destination.

 

 

Now if you think KAL is bad, you should see what passes for a flight crew in India. Over there YOU can buy a job flying in the right seat.

[jpbago]

   Excellent information, Steve, insider info that the average Joe would never know.

   This part also describes the education system and culture of the Philippines:  I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.

  As for favorite airline, it seems most people go for the cheapest ticket above all else when making a choice. I have flown Cathay Pacific maybe 8 times now and every time, the pilots were British or maybe Australian but certainly not Asian. Now I know why.

 Thanks for sharing the info.

[MacBubba]

Oddly enough, I've often received my best exchange rates at NAIA, weird I know, but there it is.

Found this to be true too. The only place in Metro Manila that I've had a better exchange from was a money changer in Greenhills.

[gmb8585]

Brett, thx for the info. Now I'm fecking Terrified of my upcoming KAL flight home. I do remember that on the flight here however it was an American pilot who was flying the plane and for a few seconds I actually felt some relief.