Brown Lives Matter? Not So Much...

[Hey Steve]

Oh yes, Robert. It would be a great challenge to say the least to get the justice system straightened out with money-from where??!!. Look at the lavish lifestyles and caste system in place with the drug lords in place at Bilibig prison. It's evidence that the whole prison system is in shambles. Now, Duterte has to reassess how and where to prioritize the national budget if in the way Duterte put it (law and order being his passion)- to kill these "suspects" and throw them in Manila Bay being the best bandaid, well, in the long run, I believe everyone loses. I still believe with the apparent lack of due process in a Democracy, nobody wins in the long run. No, I don't know where the money will come from, Robert or what would suffer to do this right, but to police the masses in the spirit of the Punisher as we see it right now-should not be an option.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Hey Steve

[scott h]

3 hours ago, Methersgate said:

despite owning 41 properties and having 17 bank accounts

Keep in mind that this is the Philippines, different cultural rules apply. As most of us know, wealth is generational. Has Dueterte been involved in shady deals in the past? Most likely, but when it is the cultural norm, is it culturally wrong. What's important is what happens moving forward. Heck, when Senator Enrile was arrested for graft (at age 91 I think) and was asked why don't you just retire? He was quoted as saying "I want to make sure my family is taken care of".

24 minutes ago, robert k said:

If you lock them up, you have to feed them. If you lock them up do you give them medical treatment or do they just die without medical treatment if they get sick?

Feed them? Yes. But that doesn't mean giving them the varied, "tasty" menu that the USA gives their prison population. Medical treatment? Do criminals deserve better medical services than the guy walking through the barangay with a rice sack picking through the trash? Give him aspirin for a headache, if he cuts his hand give him a band aide. But if he develops "high blood" lets say, and his family cant afford the medicine? He dies............that's what happens to law abiding citizens who don't break the laws. 

But moving forward, am I worried about bounties being put on criminals? Nope. I can speak only for myself, but I don't hang around street corners with shady characters anymore . Its been years since I have stayed in a bar until closing time and gotten into a fight over the last unattached female.

On the flip side of the coin, if a cop can get 50k pesos for plugging a bad guy, maybe he wont bother trying to shake me down for 500 pesos for not signaling while making a right turn . 

 

[robert k]

19 minutes ago, Hey Steve said:

Oh yes, Robert. It would be a great challenge to say the least to get the justice system straightened out with money-from where??!!. Look at the lavish lifestyles and caste system in place with the drug lords in place at Bilibig prison. It's evidence that the whole prison system is in shambles. Now, Duterte has to reassess how and where to prioritize the national budget if in the way Duterte put it (law and order being his passion)- to kill these "suspects" and throw them in Manila Bay being the best bandaid, well, in the long run, I believe everyone loses. I still believe with the apparent lack of due process in a Democracy, nobody wins in the long run. No, I don't know where the money will come from, Robert or what would suffer to do this right, but to police the masses in the spirit of the Punisher as we see it right now-should not be an option.

I suppose they could do what Brazil does. If you kill someone and you can stay at large for 24 hours and you turn yourself in they release you until your court date 30 or 40 years later. Maybe we shouldn't be comparing the Philippines to our home countries but to other places around the world.

[robert k]

3 minutes ago, scott h said:

 

Feed them? Yes. But that doesn't mean giving them the varied, "tasty" menu that the USA gives their prison population. Medical treatment? Do criminals deserve better medical services than the guy walking through the barangay with a rice sack picking through the trash? Give him aspirin for a headache, if he cuts his hand give him a band aide. But if he develops "high blood" lets say, and his family cant afford the medicine? He dies............that's what happens to law abiding citizens who don't break the laws. 

But moving forward, am I worried about bounties being put on criminals? Nope. I can speak only for myself, but I don't hang around street corners with shady characters anymore . Its been years since I have stayed in a bar until closing time and gotten into a fight over the last unattached female.

On the flip side of the coin, if a cop can get 50k pesos for plugging a bad guy, maybe he wont bother trying to shake me down for 500 pesos for not signaling while making a right turn . 

 

If you lock someone up, I think you are responsible for their medical care as it has become impossible for them to get it themselves. It is like declawing a house cat and turning it loose into the wild to fend for itself.

I'm no bleeding heart, I would favor executions over long prison sentences.

The criminal system is screwy everywhere. Do you know that in the US before they administer a lethal injection they swab your arm with alcohol? What? Do they think you are going to get an infection in the next couple minutes, die from it and cheat the system? You don't want to know how much it costs to administer a lethal injection either, it's crazy. I don't see why they can't just get a big horse syringe and give them a massive overdose of some heroine they have confiscated, if not just use a bullet.

[scott h]

2 minutes ago, robert k said:

If you lock someone up, I think you are responsible for their medical care as it has become impossible for them to get it themselves.

Agreed Robert, but what level of medical care? If an inmate has a cavity do you spend the money for a root canal? Or just pull the tooth. I know what the average Juan on the street  does. If someone came up with really, really cheap dentures, they could make a mint here.

4 minutes ago, robert k said:

Do you know that in the US before they administer a lethal injection they swab your arm with alcohol?

LMMFAO, you know I never thought of that.............but I KNOW you are right, we Americans are just so stupid in some ways.

[northtoalaska]

"Do you know that in the US before they administer a lethal injection they swab your arm with alcohol?"

Of course, alcohol helps raise the veins which is helpful. Secondly, it is possible that a stay of execution will occur prior to the final drug administration, that has happened at least once. Third, people learn a procedure for giving injections, they don't learn two procedures—swab, but not if you're going to kill someone. 

Thus, not as silly as one might imagine if one didn't think about it. 

[Dave Hounddriver]

On 5/18/2016 at 0:04 PM, northtoalaska said:

(He will get only P5,000 for the wounded suspect, but for the suspect who was shot dead, he gets P50,000, so next time, in order to get P50,000, the suspect should be killed.)

There is logic to this.  Philippines is famous for the corruption where a criminal can get released by paying off the cops.  If the criminal is dead he cannot pay off corrupt police but if he is wounded then he can.  It may be considered better to give the cops a legitimate 50K rather than let the criminals give a corrupt 50K  OR it may just up the ante that the criminals have to pay.

[MikeSwede]

12 hours ago, robert k said:

I don't think the Philippines could afford it, even if they could they would be accused of human rights violations in the prisons.

Not talking about PH specifically, the scale set for punishment should be in par with the situation where it is dealt.

Most crimes are petty crimes, wishing to improve a poor situation, the quick buck mentality. Already being locked up for 3 months would be a disaster for the convicteds family, in any poor country. In a rich country, less so.

Of all those criminals, quite a few would back off if they knew it will be dealt with, even if we are talking only shorter time in a hold.

Those who do not care, will be up the ladder in weight of crimes either way and as such, target for more severe punishment.

I don't think there are any need for extreme measures, but as said above, it might be just enough to become the enforcer of the law. Not doing anything would be the worst of all choices.

South Africa is a shining example of how fast things go down hill if leaving things be.

This equation is in no way scientific, and six years is a short time to grow forest on barren land.

[Methersgate]

15 hours ago, scott h said:

Keep in mind that this is the Philippines, different cultural rules apply. As most of us know, wealth is generational. Has Dueterte been involved in shady deals in the past? Most likely, but when it is the cultural norm, is it culturally wrong. What's important is what happens moving forward. Heck, when Senator Enrile was arrested for graft (at age 91 I think) and was asked why don't you just retire? He was quoted as saying "I want to make sure my family is taken care of". 

Up to a point, Lord Copper. I have plenty of Filipino friends, some much older than I, who would be very offended to be told that dishonesty and corruption are their "cultural norm", because they have spent their lives fighting it. 

[scott h]

7 hours ago, Methersgate said:

very offended to be told that dishonesty and corruption are their "cultural norm", because they have spent their lives fighting it.

Understood Meth, but one of the nice things about (semi) anonymous forums is that we don't need to worry to much about political correctness and we can call things as we see (and experience) them.  A lot of it is a hang over from colonial days. In Mexico (which is a lot closer culturally than folks realize) its called the "Mordida" or the bite.

Get pulled over by a traffic enforcer, give him a "gift" for snacks. City inspectors come to inspect your new building give them a "gift" for snacks. Barangay work crew comes out to clean your storm drains give them a "gift" for snacks so they will come next time you call. Expats can cite example after example of corruption that surrounds the everyday life of the average Filipino, since we did not grow up with it, we can see it for what it is.

Corruption doesn't have to involve millions of pesos to be corruption, in fact it doesn't have to involve money at all. I corrupt the system each time we enter the country. My wife has friends at the airport and each time we fly in we are met at the gate and whisked through the diplomat line at immigration and customs.

While your friends are fighting the good fight, and my hat is off to them, the truth is still the truth.