Brown Lives Matter? Not So Much...

[robert k]

8 hours ago, Methersgate said:

Up to a point, Lord Copper. I have plenty of Filipino friends, some much older than I, who would be very offended to be told that dishonesty and corruption are their "cultural norm", because they have spent their lives fighting it. 

Then I believe they would be wrong because whether you have fought it for 100 years or not has no affect on what is the norm. When the truth offends you, the seeds of corruption are probably planted.

[robert k]

12 hours ago, MikeSwede said:

Not talking about PH specifically, the scale set for punishment should be in par with the situation where it is dealt.

Most crimes are petty crimes, wishing to improve a poor situation, the quick buck mentality. Already being locked up for 3 months would be a disaster for the convicteds family, in any poor country. In a rich country, less so.

Of all those criminals, quite a few would back off if they knew it will be dealt with, even if we are talking only shorter time in a hold.

Those who do not care, will be up the ladder in weight of crimes either way and as such, target for more severe punishment.

I don't think there are any need for extreme measures, but as said above, it might be just enough to become the enforcer of the law. Not doing anything would be the worst of all choices.

South Africa is a shining example of how fast things go down hill if leaving things be.

This equation is in no way scientific, and six years is a short time to grow forest on barren land.

The cost of the legal system, building, staffing and upkeep of the prisons would be prohibitive. Lock someone up for petty theft and they have to wait years to get a court date at which they will be convicted or released.

Surely you are not advocating letting them go free with no bond, a bond they are unlikely to be able to come up with? So defacto you will have to lock them up, feed them and attend to their medical needs until their court date. All for 2k php theft? How much do you think this will cost?

If you just let people go, without bond, each time you arrest them, why would they stop committing crimes? If punishment is neither swift or sure, I foresee them committing 50 thefts for which they are arrested and countless more for which they are not arrested before they ever go to court literally years later for the first theft. Basically a long free ride before eventually they have to pay the piper. Now, what do you do with a career criminal?

It's as simple as training a puppy. You don't beat them after finding a turd they dropped yesterday, you catch them in the act and rub their nose in it and swat them on the rump with a rolled up newspaper. Swatting them for what they did yesterday doesn't work.

[Methersgate]

Scott, I don't disagree at all with that. Yes, the Philippines was governed as a province of Mexico for two and a half centuries, and all sorts of things, from the Day of the Dead to piñatas to petty corruption, got carried across. Including the strange crime of "estafa" which covers everything from bouncing a cheque to accusing a Government Official of corruption!

The small scale corruption- what the Chinese and the Vietnamese call "tea money" is indeed endemic as it is across East Asia except in Hong Kong and Singapore where it no longer exists. It can be stamped out just as the big scale corruption can be. It is possible to run a business in the Philippines and never bribe anyone - it's just a bit harder, but safer.

My point is that bribery isn't a cultural thing that can't be changed- there are plenty of Filipinos in all walks of life who find it very offensive, and their numbers are growing.

 

 

 

[northtoalaska]

"province of Mexico"

Wrong country. Should be "Spain".

[scott h]

11 minutes ago, northtoalaska said:

Should be "Spain

One would think so North, but even though the Philippines were "colonized" by Spain the Galleons would come from Acapulco and Panama. So a lot of the traditions while they are Spanish they really have a Mexican flavor. And historically the Philippines were subordinate to Province of Mexico for administrative purposes.

Edited May 21, 2016 by scott h

[northtoalaska]

:) 

Edited May 22, 2016 by northtoalaska

[scott h]

From Wikipedia:

From 1565 to 1821, the Philippines was governed as a territory of the Viceroyalty of New Spain from Mexico, via the Royal Audiencia of Manila,

Once Mexico gained independence from Spain:

administered directly from Spain from 1821 after the Mexican revolution,^[96] until 1898.

[mogo51]

Rather than worrying about criminals and how they will be punished, perhaps it would be better to consider that just maybe, the poor people of Philippines (and there are sh..loads of them) may possibly get a better deal.

Many members are comparing what happens in US, Europe, Australia or wherever, but Philippines is a struggling  country and their needs are different.

If Duterte gets some money to the needy that has not been seen in the past 6 years of current Government, then maybe that will be a good thing.  If some crooks such as drug dealers who bring misery to many and armed hold up merchants who bring fear, lose their life, I will not be losing any sleep over it.

[Methersgate]

9 hours ago, mogo51 said:

Rather than worrying about criminals and how they will be punished, perhaps it would be better to consider that just maybe, the poor people of Philippines (and there are sh..loads of them) may possibly get a better deal.

Many members are comparing what happens in US, Europe, Australia or wherever, but Philippines is a struggling  country and their needs are different.

If Duterte gets some money to the needy that has not been seen in the past 6 years of current Government, then maybe that will be a good thing.  If some crooks such as drug dealers who bring misery to many and armed hold up merchants who bring fear, lose their life, I will not be losing any sleep over it.

There is a simple problem with that: Duterte has never even suggested that his plans include "getting some money to the needy that thas not been seen in the past 6 years of current Government". The needy actually get the Conditional Cash Transfer Program that was started under Arroyo and improved under Aquino - basically you get some money if your children go to school. Duterte has never mentioned this. His vigilante justice proposals on the other hand are widely criticised for bearing down unfairly on the poor.

Duterte seems to have no social programme at all, and a glance at his Cabinet appointments suggests that they are either his old friends or supporters of GMA, with the appointment of a property developer to head the Department of Public Works and Highways particularly egregious.

A man who swears and tells dirty jokes is not necessarily a supporter of rights for the poor. Indeed, a larger proportion of the people in social classes A B and C1 voted for Duterte than voted for him in social classes D and E.

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Methersgate

[robert k]

I think Duterte sees the need for industry that will mean jobs, better jobs. Do people need more hand outs? Or do they need jobs that will lift them higher than handouts ever could? And people working better jobs pay taxes. Might even slow some of the drain of the best and brightest. Hopefully it will cut imports, eventually. What the Philippines produces right now doesn't need the kind of support and ancillary business support that heavy industry would spawn.

Ask yourself, what does the Philippines produce? Rice, produce and booze? The Philippines assembles vehicles for foreign brands and the profits do not stay in the Philippines. Honda motorcycle parts are made in China and assembled in the Philippines. The jobs are rice for today, period.

One of the ways to determine the wealth of a country is how much steel it has per person and it is oddly accurate. Maybe not so odd when you consider all the things made from steel. If Duterte wants to build a steel mill, I'm in favor of it.

If Duterte wants to allow foreigners to own, as he has suggested, up to 60% of a business, I'd be in favor of that. If Duterte is willing to bring in foreign power companies if the present ones do not become better, I'd be in favor of that. If Duterte would allow foreign companies to compete with domestic internet providers if they don't mend their ways and improve their service, I would be in favor of that. If these changes are made, I think it would stimulate business. I think it would make investment in the Philippines more attractive. I think it would mean jobs. I think it would be a good start and much better than a handout.

If Duterte can manage half of what he says he wants, I think it would be an amazing start.