Open Season!

[robert k]

8 hours ago, northtoalaska said:

But there's the rub, once you go down the road of extra-judicial killings and a total absence of the Rule of Law, anything becomes possible. 

Before there was a legal system, people sought their own justice because if they didn't, there wouldn't be any. When a legal system is broken to the point of it taking as much as 20 years before facing a trial, where one can remain at large and frighten or eliminate all witnesses, what chance for justice? Justice is a funny thing also, a judge once asked a man what he was seeking in court? The man replied that he was seeking justice? The judge replied that, Sir, this is a court of law! Not a court of justice!

When one knows that it is unlikely that one will face punishment, it tends to encourage crimes. After all, even if caught, it is likely you will escape serious consequences. Possibly decades later.

People commit some fairly serious crimes deliberately causing personal injury and against property in the Philippines and even when apprehended are turned back out because nobody has the money to hire a prosecutor to take them to court.

I will guarantee you that there are already extrajudicial killings, by ordinary people in the Philippines. I think people should get out more if you didn't already know it.

Vigilantism existed before a legal system. Only after forming a legal system did it garner the bad name it has. "Don't take the law into your own hands", what if there is no effective law? If the legal system has broken, is it really surprising that vigilantism has made a comeback?

If someone is from the US? Allow me to ask you what is a "neighborhood watch"?

If you live in a subdivision in the Philippines with guards? Where do those guards fit into the "legal" system? Are the guards trained and licensed, bonded "peace officers" with all the accoutrements of a police officer, training, uniform, Badge, handcuffs, stick, tazer pepper spray? Or is the guard just a guy with a pistol or a shotgun?

Hiring your own enforcers, if you live in a gated guarded subdivision, are you not already engaged in vigilantism? And if you are honest enough to admit that you are doing it, are you also honest enough to admit why?

[Dave Hounddriver]

Your points are all logical, Robert.  What bothers me is that it is now sanctioned from the top.  Vigilantes are people who take the law into their own hands.  I am bothered when the vigilantes are agents of the law.

You gave the example of neighborhood watch and armed guards but you missed bounty hunters (which would have been another good example).  Until this moment, the old Wanted: Dead or Alive poster was a thing of the past.  It looks like its going to make a come back.  Are you seriously suggesting that is a good thing?

[robert k]

11 minutes ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

Your points are all logical, Robert.  What bothers me is that it is now sanctioned from the top.  Vigilantes are people who take the law into their own hands.  I am bothered when the vigilantes are agents of the law.

You gave the example of neighborhood watch and armed guards but you missed bounty hunters (which would have been another good example).  Until this moment, the old Wanted: Dead or Alive poster was a thing of the past.  It looks like its going to make a come back.  Are you seriously suggesting that is a good thing?

Dave, what I am saying is that things have progressed to full circle. I am also a realist who tries to find my niche in society. I also wasn't kidding when I said people should get out more. Everything save the wanted posters has already been going on for some time. Possibly the president is speeding up the process but that isn't necessarily a bad thing in my eyes. I think there is a good possibility that things will have to come to a boil before society can return to a "legal system". To try and slow things down will just prolong the pain and delay getting back to the point you want.

Maybe because I am only 50 I still have the long view. Maybe I see the system as broken but that it will continue to grind on doing more damage and I would rather see the machine broken totally and see if anything can be salvaged and incorporated into a new machine that functions better for all, not just the few.

I sort of get a snicker when I see obvious "view with alarm" statements because they are the poorest form of arguments. I know because I have used them. In fact, I turned them around a few times in this thread. If you really believe what you are saying, what are you still doing there?

I have already stated that if I truly believed I was in danger I would run like hell, I wouldn't be wasting time.

[Jack Peterson]

8 hours ago, robert k said:

Everything save the wanted posters has already been going on for some time.

 Pop down to the NBI and you will see the wanted Posters and the Bounty payable on each Villain.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Jack Peterson
added poster

[robert k]

1 hour ago, Jack Peterson said:

 Pop down to the NBI and you will see the wanted Posters and the Bounty payable on each Villain.

I don't need the cash that bad right now but I will keep it in mind though, thanks.

[Jack Peterson]

8 minutes ago, robert k said:

I don't need the cash that bad right now but I will keep it in mind though, thanks.

 Totally Understand but was just pointing out that there is already a System for catching Villains  etc and this Shoot to kill willy nilly thing could get out of hand 

[Larry45]

On 6/6/2016 at 7:46 AM, robert k said:

 

I will guarantee you that there are already extrajudicial killings, by ordinary people in the Philippines. I think people should get out more if you didn't already know it.

I'm not sure why you keep making this point, because every expat here already knows this.  The concern here is not born out of naivete, as you suggest, but rather experience and seeing firsthand what Filipinos are capable of.  Anyone who thinks this new breed of vigilates will administer their brand of justice with responsibility, professionalism, impartiality, and non-prejudice probably needs to get out more themselves and actually spend some time around Filipinos (that they aren't sponsoring.) 

As to why the concerned expats are not leaving, it's much more complicated than that.  Most of us have obligations, commitments, investments and other attachments which keep us here at least in the short-term.  To suggest that we all can just throw everything in a suitcase and exit is really just as impractical and simple-minded as a Filipino telling us "If you don't like it, you can get out!"  Truth be told, most of us care more about this country that the Filipinos do, and would love to see positive changes.  MORE vigilante groups is probably not the answer.

And bonus points for comparing home security and self-defense with death squads. That's comical.  

[Benington]

Robert, when people who think about these things say they "view things with alarm" I admit it doesn't help if they don't specify what they are worried about. But many will be concerned about the life of someone who may or may not have have been innocent of involvement in drug dealing, or the life of a journalist, corrupt or not.To their credit there are still many people here not yet completely hardened who care simply on a human level.

But they may also be alarmed about what an expansion of vigilante operations might mean for ordinary citizens, even for ordinary criminals! And might expanded and emboldened vigilante groups themselves turn to criminal activities?

Could it scare off foreign investors? Attracting more has been listed in the incoming government's priorities. A British economist once said "Competition is about killing off the competition". That can literally be true here. We do have an interest in economic development, if only to repair the roads which many of us drive on.

In general, we might be alarmed at unintended consequences. And also that we will live in a country that may slide down international human rights rankings.

You say we have to get out more to be aware on what is going on here. I would say we have to get in more, and monitor the various news sources. Admittedly, incidents are often reported just once then forgotten eg there were 7 men killed in one incident on election day in Cavite. The case has sunk without trace. A poster on another forum said it involved involved vote buying.

Most Expats know when they come here that these things go on, and are fully aware they can do very little about it - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be "alarmed" about their possible expansion. Yes, for the great majority recent developments do not mean they should start packing. Especially for those retired here, it will, as another poster said, be fine to stay as long as the golf is not affected! Maybe different though if you work for an NGO or run a business in some areas!

Letting things "go to the boil" and expecting even a moderate reform here of the law and order system seems to me not to be a sensible or realistic thing to hope for. What damage will be done while the pan goes to the boil and what are the chances of any major change when the pan has been heat distorted beyond repair?

[mogo51]

And Where would that be Dave? Seriously, you are making a mountain out of mole hill.

Thankfully Jack put it in perspective. Seems to be a lot of paranoia surrounding this issue and the guy is not even wearing the jumper yet? Many, including myself, suggest waiting to see what transpires.

But are these just comments to raise unnecessary fears? I can see nothing constructive in them. To suggest you would be arrested for taking an aspirin is a nonsense. If your fears are that great Dave, Robert's suggestion might be worth considering.

Edited June 7, 2016 by mogo51

[mogo51]

To an addictive golfer, his clubs ARE his drugs!