EU referendum

[Benington]

1 hour ago, Kuya John said:

Democracy comes at a price

A lot has been said since the result, with stronger Political knowledge being share here than I possess.

Disappointed as I am over the result, I am willing to settle for a United Kingdom, because right now all  I see is not the dismantling of the EU, but the dismantling of the UK!

 

There was some discussion over the last few months on the probability of Scotland asking for another referendum if it was a Brexit result. It didn't get into voter's heads as, even with Leave voters, there was an assumption that the undecideds would make sure the result was for Remain, due mainly to Cameron and Osbourne's threats. Also it was drowned out by immigration and trade deal discussions.

I am now quite relaxed about Scotland leaving the UK, unlike in 2014, if they want to. We can't deny them given that the UK has been allowed to have an EU referendum.

But many issues are involved - eg the lower price of oil, what currency they would use (it can't be the pound!), would there be vetoes from EU countries like Spain with disaffected regions like Catalonia.

[stevewool]

39 minutes ago, sonjack2847 said:

Brits are Brits we don`t get told too easily what to do wether the exit is right or wrong we will come through

Was it me who told you this , or could it have been Jack who told us both, i am sure it was not you who told me or either told jack, either way i told you to keep your thoughts to yourself, that TOLD ya

[stevewool]

1 hour ago, Kuya John said:

 but the dismantling of the UK!

 

Try telling that Jimmy Krankie look alike, she has been gunning for this for such a long time, and that slimy fish Salmond

[Dave Hounddriver]

[Kuya John]

 

 

Will try to upload a recent flyer delivered through my door, is it any wonder people were confused!

 

[Benington]

Thanks for those leaflets KJ. On reading them I don't have too many criticisms, trying to be fair as someone who wanted Brexit. The quotes were, of course, selected and not representative of those people's main utterances over the campaign. But Corbyn does have a long record anti EEC/EU. Cameron's quote is probably out of context, as I think he went on to say it would be better if we stay.

The 350m issue and Turkey's accession are both misleadingly stated, but I think the real facts on the 350 became understood to most at the end of the campaign.There's a rebate and money coming back - but the net figure is still a lot. The Turkey policy remained unclear to the end though.

Asking the question: "Would you vote to join the EU" was fair and relevant.

It seems to me from afar that Leave ran the more effective campaign.

What issues do you have with those flyers, KJ?  

[virginprune]

This is an interesting take on things!

 

From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[mogo51]

Steve, the good news is, you are moving to Philippines next year and it won't matter to you.

Again, there is extremism chocking the British press following the result.  Just like Duterte, it is wait and see time.

My view is that Britian has faced far bigger challenges than this will present.

[Benington]

Oh Vp, I  think you have spent the last day thinking of something else to spoil the party, after your claim that Merseysider's were true Remainers, voting on the question on the ballot paper, when many of the 57% of the voters there either wanted to give the Tories leading Leave a kicking, or were pushing a united Ireland agenda. On the view of Merseysiders I recommend you listen to a caller from Liverpool on the Stephen Nolan show on BBC R5 last Friday night, coming in the later stages of the programme, and supporting your view. Some of what he said was almost completely unintelligible, but the gist was clear - I voted Remain to give the Leave Tories a kicking.

I respect Manchester's Remain vote, not much Merseyside's. But the Gerordies got it most right in the North of England.

Boris Johnson looked serious and contemplative - not downbeat. Did you see the pictures of Trump in Scotland and the change in him, once he secured the Republican Party nomination? A similar look and more serious than before. Boris has to fight a leadership campaign - not everyone likes him in the Tory party and there is a chance of them going for another Brexiteer. Don't be fixated on Boris. Like Farage he played a useful part in getting the Leave decision - but normal politics will now be in play.

Article 50 has been described as a stopwatch. Once started the clock runs down so it's not sensible to start it until people with authority are in place with firm ideas about our negotiating position. The EU are trying to hurry (more bullying?) the UK up because they want to scare other countries from following our example. But it is our choice when we trigger Article 50 -  although we shouldn't go out of our way to annoy the 27 EU members by dragging it out too long.

Did you see that the 6 Foreign Ministers, again, asked, or perhaps hinted, that a country (the UK) should do it's homework again and get the right answer?

Cameron's threat to trigger Article 50 immediately was just one more of his bluffs and threats, and another reason for me why he is now greatly discredited as a politician. He hasn't done anything clever, as you are arguing. He's just a loser. But at least he resigned - all his bullying Chancellor can do is tweet.

All those issues you list will need to be confronted and addressed in time - but sterling will recover, to an appropriate level - that's what a floating currency does. The deal on access to the Single Market is going to be the subject of hard negotiations - but the EU and UK are used to that - and Merkel wants a fair not punitive deal.

If the Scots want to leave, then fine! But there's a big difference now from 2014, as we are heading out. (Vp: nobody will dare not do that now we have had a referendum. There will be riots in the streets and maybe worse). Border posts on the A1? Border wire across Hadrian's Wall? Sturgeon is talking tough now, but deep down she knows it won't be easy. If it comes to it many people in Britain will be happy to see the back of Scotland. I'm moving towards that view, but not totally there yet.

The Irish border is a more immediate issue and there is a difficulty there. As before, we have to stand up to the Spanish on Gibraltar. Some bank operations and even bankers will go. There will be a hit on the economy. All to be sorted out in time.

But getting back freedom is always worth the sacrifice  - especially, as many times before in our history, there was the prospect of inexorably losing more and more.

[robert k]

The EU was already being crushed under it's own bureaucracy. I think it was a choice for Britain to leave now or every country leave when there was no longer a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of.

From what I am reading in the liberal press France and Italy have similar numbers that would like a referendum on whether to leave the EU. George Soros is saying the EU without massive restructuring is probably doomed in the next few years. The greatest line I have heard recently is if Greece demanded to leave, nobody in the EU would bat an eyelash, I don't think they are going to be that fortunate though.

Cameron actually proposed the referendum. I expect that nobody ever told him to not ask questions you may not like the answer to? Of course he was probably surrounded by people who told him the EU was loved by the great majority because the people themselves who were telling him that are themselves insulated from the common man.

As for the petition for the revote, I'm sure that many of the signatures are from people who didn't care enough to vote in the first place and now are shocked to have received a lesson in civics. I'm sure the most signatures are from people who did vote and who are thinking that it was close. That if given another chance the vote could go their way and if so, no matter how slim the margin for stay, no way would they allow another vote. Because then the "right people" have spoken, move along, nothing to see here!