Barcelona

[Reboot]

I didn't know it was still the holy month of RamaVan.

Vehicles are a tactic, not the source of the problem. That's like saying the US in the1940s fought a war against surprise naval attacks.

The Spaniards spent the better part of a millenium driving these people out. It took just a couple of decades of idiot leftist government to let them back in.

The problem isn't vans. They have to go back.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Reboot

[Snowy79]

There was a fantastic program on Al Jazeera just over a month ago. I think it was called ISIS against Russia. It pretty much summed up the ideology of some who follow Islam. It documented battles between Muslims and non Muslims with interviews of some of the leaders. 

They were exposing why they killed those that they did including fellow Muslims. In short it was down to the fact that they believed Mohamed told then they must purge the World of the infidel and that includes anyone who tolerates the infidel. They showed villages that they had taken over where the killed those that never supported them and picked up new followers as they went along. 

As they grow in number they indoctrinate others until whole villages support them or turn a blind eye to their atrocities for fear of their own life. A bit like the Nazis. Not all Germans supported them but enough turned a blind eye. 

In short loving others religion or tolerating them makes no difference. They even have a word for fooling others into gaining their trust before killing them. 

[Dave Hounddriver]

6 minutes ago, Snowy79 said:

they believed Mohamed told then they must purge the World of the infidel and that includes anyone who tolerates the infidel

We have people in the west who profess to hear God telling them to kill people.  We lock them up in loony bins for their own good, (and for the safety of those around them), if they even suggest it.  We should do the same for anyone who hears Mohamed telling them to kill people.

[sonjack2847]

The first thing to do is stop anymore coming.Stop the boats bringing them over to Europe and send them back.Then we can concentrate on the ones already here and if they don`t follow the law of the land they go back or to a  prison camp.

[Benington]

1 hour ago, scott h said:

IMO that is still a passive measure. So vehicles of EVERY type are banned. So as they have done other places they carry knives in back packs. Are back packs banned next? If so, a fanatic can storm the kitchen of one of those restaurants in those areas and rampage. So all food must be prepared off site and then delivered and sold in tourist areas? Then a fanatic will put acid in a water bottle and spray folks in the face. Ban water bottles?

A wise general onse said "If you are not on offense you are on defense" and to my knowledge very few wars have been successfully won by being defensive.

You see no role for defensive measures, yet they would probably save lives. You see only one answer to "radical Islamic terrorism", although what about other sources of terrorism? 

Your argument goes nowhere. In many countries it has, sensibly, been made difficult to purchase certain types of knives. But I am sure you are going to say "waste of effort, they can just get hold of a kitchen knife"!

In the 1970s and 80s there was a spate of plane hijackings. Measures were put in place and they are rare now. Yes, they now attack airports, and, again, certain measures have been employed. To answer your point about where these measures end....well,at some stage you reach diminishing returns, where the safety measures get too expensive and too inconvenient for the benefits derived. So, no security experts are suggesting having full security cordons further out from airport entrances.

Changes in terrorist tactics is the nature of the beast, but in the meantime defensive measures must be constantly looked at, as well as offensive measures. Working on people that can be turned around from waging jihad, difficult as that is. And also we must try not to invade any more countries to stimulate even more terrorism!

The driver of the van in Barcelona escaped, luckily to be killed by police in another attack, where he was much more exposed. It surely makes sense to reduce terrorist ability to both kill a lot of people quickly and, at the same time, to avoid being killed, injured or captured themselves? Apparently there were heavily armed police around in the Ramblas, so going near, or into, shops and restaurants with weapons puts the terrorist at great risk of being quickly shot, as happened recently at London Bridge.

[scott h]

6 minutes ago, Benington said:

"waste of effort, they can just get hold of a kitchen knife"!

I would never say that Ben. Any defensive measure helps.

What I am saying that the best defense that is not coupled with an effective offense is doomed to failure. And so far I have not seen many effective measures being taken to preclude these types of events occurring. 

[Dave Hounddriver]

In the future, a Saturday morning mind fantasy as I drink my second cup of coffee. 

In the future we will all be implanted with a computer chip at birth.  During the course of our lifetime, everything we say and do will be entered into our permanently recorded computer chip.  Then the leader of the free world does not even need to know where we are.  If anyone is found guilty of a crime against humanity the leader can push a button and kill that individual wherever he may be.  With a little advancement it could be programmed to terminate all members of a certain organization or a certain thought pattern.  We could free the world of terrorists, serial killers and even religions we did not like.  The only problem is . . . .  there would be no one left. 

So the next question is:  Is that a defensive action or an offensive action and where is the line?

[Snowy79]

In the 21st century it's about time we used the media to our benefit and not as we can see to cause hatred. We know in many countries the Government can block almost any content they wish. Maybe it's about time we stopped reporting on anything religious or terrorist related, as far as I can see it just fuels the fire 

I'd even go one further and give all religions one year for their God to turn up in person or admit it's just a pile of bull designed to fool the needy and insecure, I'd make religion illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to be subjected to it and I'd also tax all religions at 40% and use the money for real aid and not for building mega mosques or churches. Maybe even make them give a further 25% of their income to an opposing religion. We'd soon see where love they neighbour kicks in.

I think if we implemented those ideas religion would go the way of the steam train and be no longer a viable business route and soon it'll die out.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Snowy79

[Benington]

46 minutes ago, scott h said:

What I am saying that the best defense that is not coupled with an effective offense is doomed to failure. And so far I have not seen many effective measures being taken to preclude these types of events occurring. 

You wouldn't see them because many plots are foiled by the security services, details being rarely publicized, for obvious reasons. Except some information is reluctantly given out when the terrorists get through and the authorities are criticized.

I'm getting that the general focus here is on religious linked terrorism. But have just seen another report on CNN that one of the terrorists killed at Cambrills was heard to shout "Aleppo!", before being killed. Part of Aleppo was besieged, as they had risen up against the dictator Assad in the "Arab Spring", asking for democracy.

Just guessing here, but the US and the UK did very little to stop Assad's excesses. Trump loosed off some missiles but unless Assad uses poison gas again, that's the end of his contribution. These guys see European countries like Spain in the same basket as the US and UK, who might have mitigated what happened to places like Aleppo.The country has some good targets, with plenty of Western tourists, and hasn't been hit for over a decade, so got complacent..and following this, IMO, still is. (they don't have to ban ALL vehicles using the Ramblas !).

[Lou49]

Europe is sooo screwed. They have let the cockroaches into the house and now they have dug in and established colonies and more cockroaches are arriving every day.Get used to the terrorism cuz it is not gonna stop. We don't have the stomach to do what it would take to put a stop to it.Sorry to be so negative but the cockroaches will win.