Barcelona

[stevewool]

I started this thread because of what has just happened it's as simple as that.

Now I don't read up on past history much and who did this and who did that and to tell the truth I don't give a dam, I have been put on this earth to look after myself and my love ones the best I can.

Will these people stop me from doing this no they will not, only the people we elected may do this if it's to get them votes.

It's always the case, after the facts that they seem to know everyone involved in these atrosities and they have even watch a few maybe, but we are civilised here in the West and you are free to go about your business even if that means killing people and why is that , well they have rights too. 

[mogo51]

On 8/22/2017 at 8:28 AM, Benington said:

Yes, some emanating from the Hamas controlled Gaza and there were wars with Gaza a few years ago. Gaza is under a severe blockade by Israel..medical supplies, building materials. It's a pressure cooker. Israel is a bit neglected for news. CNN and other US channels report mainly just the worst events, and are somewhat pro-Government. The BBC does more and Al Jazeera does most, focusing on the Palestinians, although Al Jazeera is under threat of being closed down there. One of the few things I admire about Israel is that it is a democracy with fair judicial processes and experts say that that closure might not go through.

Some many issues there...Jerusalem, the West Bank....the Palestinians are in a desperate situation. Not much hope left of a solution mainly due to Israeli settlement building. Hamas are also pretty intransigent too. Talking about family "structures"...the Israelis routinely level their houses when anyone in a family is identified as a terrorist!

Sounds like a good plan to me.

[sonjack2847]

I read yesterday that the man driving the van had been found and shot good I say.I can`t see an end to these terrorist attacks until the governments of the world work together to stamp it out.human rights need to be re thought,

[Benington]

2 hours ago, mogo51 said:

Sounds like a good plan to me.

ie  demolishing the family houses of terrorists as a punishment. Israel is also good at preventive demolitions too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflic

A type of collective punishment, which has a long history. Often used by powerful countries during empire building and authoritarian, right wing governments. Can you see where I am going here?

In democracies seems often to be answering knee jerk public desires for revenge beyond the usual judicial process, but risks encouraging more terrorism than it prevents, especially if those affected feel it to be unfair. 

[Jack Peterson]

6 hours ago, Benington said:

Can you see where I am going here?

 Not really No!

[robert k]

9 hours ago, Benington said:

ie  demolishing the family houses of terrorists as a punishment. Israel is also good at preventive demolitions too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflic

A type of collective punishment, which has a long history. Often used by powerful countries during empire building and authoritarian, right wing governments. Can you see where I am going here?

In democracies seems often to be answering knee jerk public desires for revenge beyond the usual judicial process, but risks encouraging more terrorism than it prevents, especially if those affected feel it to be unfair. 

Terrorists don't happen in a vacuum, the family knows and possibly encouraged, certainly didn't report. The Saudis also were paying a substantial death benefit to the families of suicide bombers. Israel couldn't stop Saudi from paying the monetary incentive to become a suicide bomber but bulldozing the houses negated the monetary incentive.

In other words, "Son, don't blow yourself up in a crowd because we like our house". It's not as good as don't blow yourself up amidst innocent civilians because it's wrong? But at least it's something.

Edited August 24, 2017 by robert k

[Benington]

7 hours ago, Jack Peterson said:

 Not really No!

Spelling it out...terrorists come in different varieties. One common source is where a state is persecuting certain people in a country rather than trying make accommodation with them. Or taking over territory and keeping it for decades.There are many examples around the World, Israel is one IMO. Desperation sets in, especially if governments continue with policies which remove prospects for solutions. The state responds with increasingly tough responses to placate public opinion and keep them in power. Starting with family punishments of various types and can range up to group or community punishment eg Sadaam Hussein's Poison Gas attack on Halabja. Fueling more terrorism, often of a more desperate nature eg people running through the streets stabbing at random.

Families in the ME can be large and you can't assume they always know what their sons are up to. Some examples in the West where parents had no idea what was going on.

Also,in the ME families can be under threat themselves from terrorist groups.

[robert k]

1 hour ago, Benington said:

 

Families in the ME can be large and you can't assume they always know what their sons are up to. Some examples in the West where parents had no idea what was going on.

It's pretty rare for little Johnny or Suzie to commit a suicide bombing. This would seem to indicate that it wouldn't take that much supervision from the ME family to effect a change since the bare minimum in the West seems to usually be sufficient?

[Benington]

1 hour ago, robert k said:

It's pretty rare for little Johnny or Suzie to commit a suicide bombing. This would seem to indicate that it wouldn't take that much supervision from the ME family to effect a change since the bare minimum in the West seems to usually be sufficient?

You conveniently leave out my final sentence on the influence of terrorist organisations on family members. There are many hiding in places like the West Bank, 

And many Palestinian family men living outside Israel go there daily to work. Wages and conditions are better. But the severe difficulties involved in getting through all the security result in extremely long days..so very little time for family.  

http://www.epsusa.org/publications/newsletter/2004/nov2004/saleh.pdf

The above article shows the role Palestinian terrorist organisations play and that prior "run ins" with the Israeli security forces are a main motivator to join them. .

Support for my wider argument in this thread....that harsh counter measures against terrorism don't pay off in terms of reducing its occurrence. They may even encourage more of it.

[robert k]

5 hours ago, Benington said:

You conveniently leave out my final sentence on the influence of terrorist organisations on family members. There are many hiding in places like the West Bank, 

And many Palestinian family men living outside Israel go there daily to work. Wages and conditions are better. But the severe difficulties involved in getting through all the security result in extremely long days..so very little time for family.  

http://www.epsusa.org/publications/newsletter/2004/nov2004/saleh.pdf

The above article shows the role Palestinian terrorist organisations play and that prior "run ins" with the Israeli security forces are a main motivator to join them. .

Support for my wider argument in this thread....that harsh counter measures against terrorism don't pay off in terms of reducing its occurrence. They may even encourage more of it.

Not conveniently at all. If you don't go looking for them, they are less likely to go looking for you. Back to that absolute minimal supervision thing again.