Charity, When Is Giving Actually Hurting

[Mr Lee]

IMO there is a fine line between the two. My wife and I have given plenty of money to our extended family during our years of marriage and as I look back on it, I feel that I have failed because giving without making someone earn can often be used as an excuse to spend other money earned foolishly or the money given foolishly. Example, if we feed a family, what will they do with the money that they would have otherwise spent on food? Too many poor people only seem to live for today and not for their future and therefore, easy come easy go. So in all the years that we have been giving and looking back, our family has little to show for it and their quality of life has not improved one drop except for tangible items that we have given, such as clothing, shoes, containers to store food in, medicines etc. Things they never would have bought for themselves and I even have misgivings about some of those because it is possible that some items can be sold in order to buy frivolous items. :1 (103): So my big question to you all is, how can we all really make a difference? What things have you done with your family that worked to better their lives? Maybe I am wrong, but I sure feel like everything we have done has been for naught. :thumbsup:

[TheMason]

IMO there is a fine line between the two. My wife and I have given plenty of money to our extended family during our years of marriage and as I look back on it, I feel that I have failed because giving without making someone earn can often be used as an excuse to spend other money earned foolishly or the money given foolishly. Example, if we feed a family, what will they do with the money that they would have otherwise spent on food? Too many poor people only seem to live for today and not for their future and therefore, easy come easy go. So in all the years that we have been giving and looking back, our family has little to show for it and their quality of life has not improved one drop except for tangible items that we have given, such as clothing, shoes, containers to store food in, medicines etc. Things they never would have bought for themselves and I even have misgivings about some of those because it is possible that some items can be sold in order to buy frivolous items. :23_11_62[1]: So my big question to you all is, how can we all really make a difference? What things have you done with your family that worked to better their lives? Maybe I am wrong, but I sure feel like everything we have done has been for naught. :1 (103):

I understand how you feel but I don't think you should view your efforts as a failure. An act of kindness or an attempt to help someone is never a failure. The recipient may fail to take advantage of the opportunity given to them but a generous heart and desire to help someone less fortunate is never a failure.A poor Filipino family that suddenly has a "wealthy" Kano for a relative has in essence hit the lottery. Unfortunately, the newspapers are full of stories about lottery winners pissing away their money and being poor again a few years later. You've posted many of your experiences and I think you took the correct approach. You tried to limit your charity to items they needed, paying for tuition, medical care, etc. My general rule of thumb when helping the family is that we keep our giving in line with what the rest of the family gives and we do not give a peso more than we can afford. My wife and I both agree that we should help but not at the expense of our own future and security.There are no easy answers to how to help impoverished people here but it is never a failure to try and help people. Failure comes when you turn a blind eye and do nothing.

[Mr Lee]

IMO there is a fine line between the two. My wife and I have given plenty of money to our extended family during our years of marriage and as I look back on it, I feel that I have failed because giving without making someone earn can often be used as an excuse to spend other money earned foolishly or the money given foolishly. Example, if we feed a family, what will they do with the money that they would have otherwise spent on food? Too many poor people only seem to live for today and not for their future and therefore, easy come easy go. So in all the years that we have been giving and looking back, our family has little to show for it and their quality of life has not improved one drop except for tangible items that we have given, such as clothing, shoes, containers to store food in, medicines etc. Things they never would have bought for themselves and I even have misgivings about some of those because it is possible that some items can be sold in order to buy frivolous items. :23_11_62[1]: So my big question to you all is, how can we all really make a difference? What things have you done with your family that worked to better their lives? Maybe I am wrong, but I sure feel like everything we have done has been for naught. :1 (103):

I understand how you feel but I don't think you should view your efforts as a failure. An act of kindness or an attempt to help someone is never a failure. The recipient may fail to take advantage of the opportunity given to them but a generous heart and desire to help someone less fortunate is never a failure.A poor Filipino family that suddenly has a "wealthy" Kano for a relative has in essence hit the lottery. Unfortunately, the newspapers are full of stories about lottery winners pissing away their money and being poor again a few years later. You've posted many of your experiences and I think you took the correct approach. You tried to limit your charity to items they needed, paying for tuition, medical care, etc. My general rule of thumb when helping the family is that we keep our giving in line with what the rest of the family gives and we do not give a peso more than we can afford. My wife and I both agree that we should help but not at the expense of our own future and security.There are no easy answers to how to help impoverished people here but it is never a failure to try and help people. Failure comes when you turn a blind eye and do nothing.

I thank you for the kind words and I appreciate your point of view but I am still searching for a way to make a real difference. I realize that any money we spend trickles down and makes a difference, but in my mind, there has to be a way to make a real difference for our family and other families in the Philippines and especially for future generations. If I was a doctor, a dentist or some other medical professional then I would probably have a way to help poor people, but the problem would still be how to help the poorest of the poor. While I realize many people may be considered poor and I have seen poverty on many levels in the Philippines, it is those who have to totally do without that I am trying to find a way to help. With all the great minds out there, there must be someone who has ideas that can work on a large scale and that we can possibly fund by using this forum or by just putting a bunch of us together. BTW, I also realize and hope many of you do too, that what we try to do on this forum, to help people to enjoy living or visiting the Philippines or marrying a lady and bringing her back a first world nation where she can send money home to her family, also makes a difference and the more people who fit into those catagories the more foreign money trickles in and that money grows with each passing year and those funds probably make a bigger difference than we could even imagine. The people who work in the hotels, in the restaurants, the supermarket, the mall store workers, the apartments that get rented and the repairs done to them by workers, the people who work for the phone, electric, cable, water companies, etc and the list goes on and on. So believe it or not, by just participating in this forum and of course others, we all can make a difference and that difference might be very hard to measure because many people read and never post to let us know you all helped them, yet without members a forum is nothing and the members are the ones who help those others to decide to go to the Philippines in the first place. :1 (103): I guess that one of the problems many of us face is that we may have family of our own to take care of. I know that my wife and I ship balikbayan boxes and then also bring over as many suitcases as we are allowed to bring and most of what we bring is for gifts for family and friends and only a small amount is things we need for ourselves. So while we are giving and that giving makes us feel like we are all making a difference in our own ways, yet I still have this nagging in my stomach telling me that there has to be more we can do that would not end up just wasted. :1 (235): Viable ideas guys and girls???

[Mike S]

A wise man once said ......... "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day ......... teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" ....... as you said Lee many times just giving someone something for nothing can cause more harm than good ...... and most of the time it can break your heart to say no ....... like when the little kids come up to your cab window and beg for coins ...... but you are only encouraging the practice if you give in and give them some ....... yea .... I know it is only a few coins .... but that is not the point ..... oh ... and by the way ........ I have NEVER seen any Filipinos give them anything ......

Edited October 6, 2009 by Mike S

[TheMason]

The only lasting charity you can provide to anyone is access to education or job training skills. Everything else will temporarily alleviate their poverty but won't really help them long term. In my personal situation, my wife's 2 sons will both have the opportunity to go to much better colleges or emigrate to the US if that is what they choose to do. Whether or not they take advantage of their opportunity is entirely up to them. Regardless of what they choose or how their lives turn out, they will not receive cash payments from me beyond what is required to attend school. Once they are doing better in life, I hope they will help their cousins and other relatives in the same fashion but given the paucity of Filipino charity, I don't have high hopes that they will do so.We do give cash to my mother-in-law to help her get by but she is elderly and education would not help her. We give a small amount, 5k per month, and when she passes away, the monthly cash payment will not be given to someone else.As to strangers on the street, in the course of my past career I helped bring jobs and wealth to over 3000 Filipinos. In my current situation, I provide opportunity to my immediate family. It is then up to those that have jobs and opportunity to help their countrymen. If they choose not to help their own countrymen then I don't feel an obligation to help either.

[johnb]

IMO there is a fine line between the two. My wife and I have given plenty of money to our extended family during our years of marriage and as I look back on it, I feel that I have failed because giving without making someone earn can often be used as an excuse to spend other money earned foolishly or the money given foolishly. Example, if we feed a family, what will they do with the money that they would have otherwise spent on food? Too many poor people only seem to live for today and not for their future and therefore, easy come easy go. So in all the years that we have been giving and looking back, our family has little to show for it and their quality of life has not improved one drop except for tangible items that we have given, such as clothing, shoes, containers to store food in, medicines etc. Things they never would have bought for themselves and I even have misgivings about some of those because it is possible that some items can be sold in order to buy frivolous items. :23_11_62[1]: So my big question to you all is, how can we all really make a difference? What things have you done with your family that worked to better their lives? Maybe I am wrong, but I sure feel like everything we have done has been for naught. :1 (103):

Actually Lee I have some ideas that would assist any developing country, and equip the people involved with the right tools for the future, It's nothing that I can do now as I'm still setting my self up, but in a year or two's time I may be in a situation to test the water myself.As you know I was working overseas as a development worker for ten years before coming to Cebu,I'm a Carpenter joiner by trade but I taught general building construction to both Vocational students and teachers, working in Central America, Papua new Guinea, Kenya and Uganda [ hence my old name on the "another forum" forum Bukwali]I see the same problems here as I saw in all the other developing countries that I've lived in and worked, and that is, that the aid given by 1st world countries is only given to meet the objectives of the first world countries, not to help anyone but them selves, people like myself who were on the ground could see monies being misused all the time, but our reports met deaf ears and blind eye's, eventually I worked for an Austrian NGO only one of two British working for there entire company, we the NGO staff were answerable to the Austrian public who were funding our projects and they scrutinized our reports and certainly acted on our recommendations, that was the first time I started seeing aid getting to the right people, I could write about my plans for hours but I have neither the time nor inclination at this moment, my wife [cebu born and bred]worked with me in Kenya and Uganda and would rather we returned to Uganda she see's uganda as a less corrupt country than the Philippines, I;m not sure she's right but certainly foreigners working there as development workers are treated with some appreciation by the Ugandan government and the local people, cant say the same for the Philippines...............anyway Lee, on your next visit we'll have something to talk about, better bring a crate of grandees cos it will be a long chat :1 (235): John

[Mr Lee]

The only lasting charity you can provide to anyone is access to education or job training skills. Everything else will temporarily alleviate their poverty but won't really help them long term. In my personal situation, my wife's 2 sons will both have the opportunity to go to much better colleges or emigrate to the US if that is what they choose to do. Whether or not they take advantage of their opportunity is entirely up to them. Regardless of what they choose or how their lives turn out, they will not receive cash payments from me beyond what is required to attend school. Once they are doing better in life, I hope they will help their cousins and other relatives in the same fashion but given the paucity of Filipino charity, I don't have high hopes that they will do so.We do give cash to my mother-in-law to help her get by but she is elderly and education would not help her. We give a small amount, 5k per month, and when she passes away, the monthly cash payment will not be given to someone else.As to strangers on the street, in the course of my past career I helped bring jobs and wealth to over 3000 Filipinos. In my current situation, I provide opportunity to my immediate family. It is then up to those that have jobs and opportunity to help their countrymen. If they choose not to help their own countrymen then I don't feel an obligation to help either.

Thank you for your comments and ideas, as some members may know, I did try to provide a college education for 7 of our family in the Phils and 6 actually went, and one I had to cut off before she started because she allowed access to her school only account by her mother against my direct objections and then lied to me face to face when I asked her how much was left in the account. You see I provided an account for her and her sister to go to high school first and then hopefully college but we did not maintain control because there were no BPI accounts in that area she needed for school. Lesson one for me, never give anyone anything that I cannot watch online. Next we provided BPI ATM cards attached to our account and that we could watch but prior to that, every other one that we gave money to did not even come close to completing college, so lesson two for me was to only give money a little at a time and to try to pay for as many things as we could directly.Next we made the mistake of funding 3 kids via the older brother, lesson number three learned by me was that a person who has never had money in their life, does not know how to handle money, again this goes back to lesson number 2 and we will never give money to one to pay for more than one and never in any quantity. A lot of money was wasted before we were able to get back and check to see what was being spent and how. So lesson number four for me was to always make the kid account for all there spending before funding future semesters. I learned a lot over the years and believe me that it was a very expensive lesson, so lesson number five for me was to handle all details myself and always have oversight on all items. Now many may say this is micro management, but when dealing with people who have never handled that amount of money before, they need to be taught how, and while many did not like the lesson and felt I was too strict toward the end, and maybe I was because of getting screwed too many times with each and every one along the way. So lesson six for me was that any future students would have to be working students so that they can appreciate the value of the peso given, or I will never give it again for school.I hope what I learned along the way can help others and I hope others might post some lessons of their own so we can learn from them.We now use BPI online to watch any accounts that we set up and we lock in the minimum balance (very important) to prevent family from going below the minimun which has also happened and actually resulted in the accounts being closed, so again we go back to people who never handled money understanding how to do it. Another thing that I learned was that unless I directed them to use an ATM at the actual bank to avoid fees, since it was not their money, they would use whatever ATM machine had the least people in line. I learned a lot but I am sure there are plenty more lessons for me to learn.

[Mr Lee]

IMO there is a fine line between the two. My wife and I have given plenty of money to our extended family during our years of marriage and as I look back on it, I feel that I have failed because giving without making someone earn can often be used as an excuse to spend other money earned foolishly or the money given foolishly. Example, if we feed a family, what will they do with the money that they would have otherwise spent on food? Too many poor people only seem to live for today and not for their future and therefore, easy come easy go. So in all the years that we have been giving and looking back, our family has little to show for it and their quality of life has not improved one drop except for tangible items that we have given, such as clothing, shoes, containers to store food in, medicines etc. Things they never would have bought for themselves and I even have misgivings about some of those because it is possible that some items can be sold in order to buy frivolous items. :23_11_62[1]: So my big question to you all is, how can we all really make a difference? What things have you done with your family that worked to better their lives? Maybe I am wrong, but I sure feel like everything we have done has been for naught. :1 (103):

Actually Lee I have some ideas that would assist any developing country, and equip the people involved with the right tools for the future, It's nothing that I can do now as I'm still setting my self up, but in a year or two's time I may be in a situation to test the water myself.As you know I was working overseas as a development worker for ten years before coming to Cebu,I'm a Carpenter joiner by trade but I taught general building construction to both Vocational students and teachers, working in Central America, Papua new Guinea, Kenya and Uganda [ hence my old name on the "another forum" forum Bukwali]I see the same problems here as I saw in all the other developing countries that I've lived in and worked, and that is, that the aid given by 1st world countries is only given to meet the objectives of the first world countries, not to help anyone but them selves, people like myself who were on the ground could see monies being misused all the time, but our reports met deaf ears and blind eye's, eventually I worked for an Austrian NGO only one of two British working for there entire company, we the NGO staff were answerable to the Austrian public who were funding our projects and they scrutinized our reports and certainly acted on our recommendations, that was the first time I started seeing aid getting to the right people, I could write about my plans for hours but I have neither the time nor inclination at this moment, my wife [cebu born and bred]worked with me in Kenya and Uganda and would rather we returned to Uganda she see's uganda as a less corrupt country than the Philippines, I;m not sure she's right but certainly foreigners working there as development workers are treated with some appreciation by the Ugandan government and the local people, cant say the same for the Philippines...............anyway Lee, on your next visit we'll have something to talk about, better bring a crate of grandees cos it will be a long chat :1 (103): John

John, I look forward to supplying all those Grandees and listening to your ideas because failure is not an option with me and I know there has to be a way that will actually work. Thanks. :1 (235):

[tropicalwaste]

IMO there is a fine line between the two. My wife and I have given plenty of money to our extended family during our years of marriage and as I look back on it, I feel that I have failed because giving without making someone earn can often be used as an excuse to spend other money earned foolishly or the money given foolishly. Example, if we feed a family, what will they do with the money that they would have otherwise spent on food? Too many poor people only seem to live for today and not for their future and therefore, easy come easy go. So in all the years that we have been giving and looking back, our family has little to show for it and their quality of life has not improved one drop except for tangible items that we have given, such as clothing, shoes, containers to store food in, medicines etc. Things they never would have bought for themselves and I even have misgivings about some of those because it is possible that some items can be sold in order to buy frivolous items. :541: So my big question to you all is, how can we all really make a difference? What things have you done with your family that worked to better their lives? Maybe I am wrong, but I sure feel like everything we have done has been for naught. :yes:

Actually Lee I have some ideas that would assist any developing country, and equip the people involved with the right tools for the future, It's nothing that I can do now as I'm still setting my self up, but in a year or two's time I may be in a situation to test the water myself.As you know I was working overseas as a development worker for ten years before coming to Cebu,I'm a Carpenter joiner by trade but I taught general building construction to both Vocational students and teachers, working in Central America, Papua new Guinea, Kenya and Uganda [ hence my old name on the "another forum" forum Bukwali]I see the same problems here as I saw in all the other developing countries that I've lived in and worked, and that is, that the aid given by 1st world countries is only given to meet the objectives of the first world countries, not to help anyone but them selves, people like myself who were on the ground could see monies being misused all the time, but our reports met deaf ears and blind eye's, eventually I worked for an Austrian NGO only one of two British working for there entire company, we the NGO staff were answerable to the Austrian public who were funding our projects and they scrutinized our reports and certainly acted on our recommendations, that was the first time I started seeing aid getting to the right people, I could write about my plans for hours but I have neither the time nor inclination at this moment, my wife [cebu born and bred]worked with me in Kenya and Uganda and would rather we returned to Uganda she see's uganda as a less corrupt country than the Philippines, I;m not sure she's right but certainly foreigners working there as development workers are treated with some appreciation by the Ugandan government and the local people, cant say the same for the Philippines...............anyway Lee, on your next visit we'll have something to talk about, better bring a crate of grandees cos it will be a long chat :thumbsup: John

I would be keen to get involved aswell John..

[tropicalwaste]

Ive been trying not to post my real thoughts on this but John you tapped my raw nerve about the Western governments.. personally I think a lot of what is done with Aid is to create a false state of "hope". We shall provide the minimum as a Western nation while at the same time well aware of the bribes and thefts that keep a country locked in poverty systematically get raw materials at knock down prices. Is the U.S. the new Rome?Anyway.. im stopping before i go further.. I think localised development is the way forward with education. Projects shouldnt be taken on that cant be seen to the end as it then becomes worthless and frustrating to see all the hard work go quickly down the toilet.One idea im working on when I get back is container gardening for sitting on roofs small venture I know but I could really do with your help and experience on this if your interested John? The concept being to develop the plants to a point we can clip and start another batch but then educate people about clipping and growing, fertilizing etc. so that they go back to areas with an initial batch that is then clipped again when ready and expands out as more people get involved over time. I know its not going to be an overnight success. But I think it would be a step in the right direction and allow people to grow things in areas they wouldnt normally aswell as provide at least part of some peoples diets.. what are peoples thoughts?