Coronavirus Information Charts.

[Tommy T.]

11 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

It is really not much different than all the other rule breaking that goes on here.  There is a lack of common courtesy and that is hard to get rid of.  Crazy drivers, etc., endanger and kill people all the time.

Just so you know I DO read yours and other's comments carefully (except when I miss something!!!?)

I will just add to your last comment that L shares our feelings about lack of common courtesy here and it really irritates her too - as noted by her anecdotes above...

Hmmm... and you should have finished your last post with "that is death?"

Edited May 10, 2020 by Tommy T.

[Snowy79]

26 minutes ago, Mike J said:

You are saying that deaths are up from other causes because of the corona, and this is WITH a lockdown.  The hospital overcrowding and turn aways would have been far worse WITHOUT a lockdown because of a dramatic increase in corona cases.   The logic of that argument against quarantine sort of breaks down in my opinion. 

That is correct I am saying the death rates are up even with a lockdown, from illnesses and failure to treat other patients.  I have it on first hand accounts that patients are being turned away from hospitals in the Philippines to die at home due to the fear of the Coronavirus. You only have to look what happened in Manila and Cebu within one month of the first confirmed Covid case.  Hospitals were saying they were overwhelmed and had no option but to refuse to admit further patients, not Covid patients but all patients.  Nurses were opting to self quarantine without undergoing any test as they were frightened, many hospital wards closed just due to staff self quarantining.

My very good friend is a senior nurse at a provincial hospital and she has messaged a few times in tears as the hospital has refused to treat some patients, she has phoned around to see if other hospitals would accept the patients to be told under no circumstances will they even look at the patient.  The latest person she saved was kicked out of hospital in a near by city with a dead baby inside her.  She arrived at the provincial hospital and was being turned away when my friend stepped in and demanded she be treated, working overtime for free to assist.  The week before it was a baby with siezures and her hospital refused to treat the baby, again she phoned around to be told no hospital would look at the baby.  She advised them to go to the city hospital but they had to make their own way there as no ambulance would be provided.  The arrived at the city hospital to be refused treatment and while there begging for help the baby died. She says it's the same story she is getting from other colleagues.

They built many Nightingale hospitals in the UK and closed wards, others they turned into Covid wards.  They have already closed a few of the Nightingale hospitals and thousands of nurses who did bank shift have been furloughed. The predicted onslaught from the Coviod virus never occurred and the UK took the herd immunity approach to the virus.  Sweden took and ever more cavalier approach to it leaving bars, restaurants and schools open.  The figures for deaths may appear high but as has been highlighted previously many of the deaths were calssed as Covid even without testing and others were classed as at high risk of mortality anyway.

I'm not saying Covid hasn't killed people that you wouldn't normally expect to die, I'm just saying that others are dying that could have lived if treated.  It will be a good year at least before the experts do the statistics but I think there could be a few shocks in store.  One area I'd be looking at is if there's an increase in suicide as the mental health charities are saying they've had a historic increase in mental health issues. I'll keep an open mind as I'm aware many are businesses and looking for Government grants but if some of the posts I'm seeing on the local Facebooks are anything to go by a few people I know are sitting on the edge right now.  Certainly on a Forces help site I'm on a few who were struggling have put desperate posts up begging for help as the quarantine is making them feel even more useless. It's called a Beacon alert and one a week is the normal, now it's one or two a day, some they get to them in time others sadly it's too late.

[OnMyWay]

51 minutes ago, Mike J said:

You are saying that deaths are up from other causes because of the corona, and this is WITH a lockdown.  The hospital overcrowding and turn aways would have been far worse WITHOUT a lockdown because of a dramatic increase in corona cases.   The logic of that argument against quarantine sort of breaks down in my opinion. 

Is there a typo in Snowy's post?

You are speculating based on a worse case scenario of absolutely no mitigation.  You can have mitigation without a complete shutdown of the economy.  I think the lessons learned from this fiasco will result in those types of plans in the future.  Similar to Sweden but perhaps a bit more aggressive.

I think Snowy's point is slightly different than you are understanding.  It is not so much "turnaways" as it it is related issues.  I can use myself as an example.

1.  I really don't want to go to a hospital while the virus is around so I don't get treated.

2.  I have two skin cancers that need treatment and I am locked down with no access to the correct doctor.

3.  I would have been having hip surgery during this time, but now I don't know when.  The pain killers I am taking are probably not good for me.

4.  In the U.S.,  in many areas, hospitals are far underutilized and doctors / nurses are laid off.  All of those people are like me but probably with far worse conditions that need to be treated.

 

[Snowy79]

31 minutes ago, GeoffH said:

I'd rather imagine this' that my country put in place a strict lockdown that allowed dedicated Covid-19 hospitals to handle the all Covid-19 cases, that other hospitals (both public and private) worked over time to handle all waiting surgeries on a 'urgency' basis back before the virus left China and that the non Covid-19 hospitals therefore had sufficient capacity to diagnose Cancer patients, Heart patients and other serious cases.

Oh wait... I don't have to imagine it... it happened here (and in most other countries who acted quickly).

Governments who didn't come down hard on Covid-19 early are the ones who 'took their eye off the ball as you put it'.  

Sorry Geoff but a 2 second Google of cancer tests on hold in Australia goes against what you think.  I did other so called First World countries also and it's a recurring theme. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/breast-screening-on-hold-amid-coronavirus-concerns/12096512

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/responding-to-covid-19-are-lockdowns-doing-more-harm-than-good/

[Mike J]

2 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

Is there a typo in Snowy's post?

You are speculating based on a worse case scenario of absolutely no mitigation.  You can have mitigation without a complete shutdown of the economy.  I think the lessons learned from this fiasco will result in those types of plans in the future.  Similar to Sweden but perhaps a bit more aggressive.

I think Snowy's point is slightly different than you are understanding.  It is not so much "turnaways" as it it is related issues.  I can use myself as an example.

1.  I really don't want to go to a hospital while the virus is around so I don't get treated.

2.  I have two skin cancers that need treatment and I am locked down with no access to the correct doctor.

3.  I would have been having hip surgery during this time, but now I don't know when.  The pain killers I am taking are probably not good for me.

4.  In the U.S.,  in many areas, hospitals are far underutilized and doctors / nurses are laid off.  All of those people are like me but probably with far worse conditions that need to be treated.

 

I did not see a typo, or maybe your question was sarcasm?   I am honestly confused, not trying to be augmentative.  I agree with his post that deaths from other than covid are up do to hospitals being overwhelmed and having to turn away and/or delay treatment to patients.  Take you post for example:

1.  You do not want to go to the hospital because of the virus.  I can understand that, but the situation with the hosptals is what it is and would be worse without a quarantine.  Even those who say lets get it over with and get herd immunity will admit that.

2.  It is my understanding that individuals can seek medical care even during ECQ.  Is that not true?

3.  Having had five lower back surgeries I know what chronic pain is.  Hopefully you can get treatment soon.

4.  Are these layoffs in the US because people are staying away out of fear? 

I can understand your frustration and I can read the genuine anguish in @Snowy79 post.  As I say, I am confused as to the point of the posts?  The situation is what is because of the corona.  What action would have prevented this situation or what action now would make it better?

[GeoffH]

15 minutes ago, Snowy79 said:

Sorry Geoff but a 2 second Google of cancer tests on hold in Australia goes against what you think.  I did other so called First World countries also and it's a recurring theme. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/breast-screening-on-hold-amid-coronavirus-concerns/12096512

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/responding-to-covid-19-are-lockdowns-doing-more-harm-than-good/

 

My friend Anthony has terminal cancer, he went in only this week for futher testing on the progress of his cancer.  

Bendigo Hospital are definitely doing testing (I can't speak for other states and Australia has a state based medical system).

What is on hold is non GP testing, like the breast screening clinics, you can still be tested by referral from your GP.

Some patients are being seen by telehealth, some by nurse phone consultation, others in person (see the link below).

All Victorian non Covid-19 hospitals have similar procedures.

https://www.bendigohealth.org.au/COVID19Cancer/

Edited May 10, 2020 by GeoffH

[OnMyWay]

53 minutes ago, Mike J said:

I did not see a typo, or maybe your question was sarcasm?

It was not sarcasm.  I reread it and I think I understand the sentence that I was not understanding.

 

56 minutes ago, Mike J said:

2.  It is my understanding that individuals can seek medical care even during ECQ.  Is that not true?

Yes, in some places.  But who wants to go to a hospital that has Covid cases, especially in PH?  In my case, Subic Bay has made it very hard to leave, even for medical.  If I want to go to Clark to see my doctors there, I have to get a travel certificate.  They take my ID and then to get it back I have to bring them papers from the doc, then I go on 14 day house quarantine.

3.  Having had five lower back surgeries I know what chronic pain is.  Hopefully you can get treatment soon.

4.  Are these layoffs in the US because people are staying away out of fear? 

Yes, and also in the U.S., elective surgeries are forbidden.

 

[OnMyWay]

1 hour ago, Mike J said:

What action would have prevented this situation or what action now would make it better?

Using hindsight, there are many things I think would work better.  Like I said earlier, some tweaks to the Sweden strategy would be my choice.  When I get some time perhaps I will list out what I think a good strategy would be.

Now, you have to take each area case by case, so it is hard to make a broad statement.

[Mike J]

6 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

Yes, and also in the U.S., elective surgeries are forbidden.

Now that is something I did not know.  To me that does not make sense if, in fact, some hospitals are laying off staff or closing do to lack of patients. 

[RBM]

2 hours ago, Mike J said:

It is such a difficult way to find a way forward.  As the old saying goes,  we are "between the rock and hard place".  There are really are no "good" choices, only those that do the least harm.  Even after this is all over the debate will go on for years, perhaps decades.  One side will say "See, it was overblown and the decisions made in panic wrecked the world's economy".  The other side will say "As bad as it was, the outcome would have been so much worse had we not taken extreme action."

Future comparisons of those countries which did quick and strong lockdowns versus those who delayed and/or had less restrictions may prove fruitful.  What was the toll both in terms of deaths and damage to the economies?   Which methods provided the best balance?  But I expect that even the results of those studies will prove to be just as controversial.   Be a shame if we go through all this and learn nothing to help us through the next one. 

For a quick peep we could take a look at Swedens figures compared to its Nordic neighbours. Remembering Sweden does include deaths from nursing homes.