Hats off to China!

[peterfe]

7 hours ago, fillipino_wannabe said:

Not just China either. Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand all handled it much better than most of Europe and the US.

I'm glad to see this thread is still on track, and hasn't degenerated into a discussion of the Chinese government's treatment of dissidents and religious minorities. As it's somewhat unlikely that the POTUS will go cap in hand to President Xi and say, "Oh dear, we got it terribly wrong, please show us how you did it", maybe some Western governments should send a delegation to Thailand to find out what they did (probably less draconian measures than China). But of course they won't. The Thai figures are quite remarkable (again, if you can believe Worldometer). They have a similar level of poverty to the Philippines, so presumably not loads of money and resources for health care, etc. There's less physical contact between people than here, but on the other hand, almost all men, married or not, regularly visit prostitutes, and probably haven't stopped during Covid-19. So it would be interesting to know how Thailand managed Covid-19 so well.

As for the other Asian countries mentioned, yes, I agree, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Asians do what the authorities tell them to do to a greater extent than in the West.

[scott h]

8 hours ago, fillipino_wannabe said:

Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand

This is really comparing apples and oranges IMHO. It is very hard to draw cultural comparisons between Asia and European  countries to start with but when you start combining cultural and government policies it gets even stickier when you consider history.

England hasn't had an authoritarian government since Cromwell, the USA since our civil war which ended 1865.

When we compare that with asian countries

Viet Nam....still communist. 

Thailand...Government highly influenced by the military

Malaysia colony until ww2, 

South Korea, absolute monarky until the early 1900s, then under Japanese martial law until 1945 then had several military coups until the 1990s. Plus their culture is highly influenced by Chinese and Japanese cultural practices. 

Japan has always been a highly authoritarian country through out its history.

It is just very hard to compare the reactions of the average western citizen to those of asian countries. 

 

[Mike J]

 Countries that recognized the seriousness of the problem and took early action with strong, even harsh, measures, to include quarantine, social distancing, masks, testing, tracing have had far greater success than those that favored a less restrictive, "it's just the flu", "recommend but don't require", "get it over and done with", etc.

The populations of USA and Brazil comprise approximately 4 percent of the worlds total population.  But they account for approximately 40 percent of the world's reported covid cases and 36 percent of the reported deaths.  The leaders of both countries have said that covid was not a serious problem, would go away quickly, did not support wearing masks, etc.   So I think the message and, more importantly the actions (or lack of action) from the highest levels of government says a lot about how the pandemic was handled.   

This is not meant to be a political rant, but rather my opinion of how and why two countries have had, and continue to have, such a disproportionate number of covid cases and deaths. 

[scott h]

28 minutes ago, Mike J said:

This is not meant to be a political rant,

Mike, its hard to discuss these types of things with out "scraping" up against politics, we just need to be circumspect and respectful when we do. 

30 minutes ago, Mike J said:

 Countries that recognized the seriousness of the problem and took early action with strong, even harsh, measures, to include quarantine, social distancing, masks, testing, tracing have had far greater success than those that favored a less restrictive,

I agree, but their systems of government allow such measures to be taken. Where as in the USA (wont talk about Brazil, dont know enough about them) leaders have to walk a very fine line. Right or wrong that is just the way it is. My copy paste is not meant to shout, i just cant figure out how to change the font lol 

The First Amendment states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

The above is what all the folks that wanted to go to church were yelling about

protection by the Government; the enjoyment of life and liberty ... the right of a citizen of one State to pass through, or to reside in any other State, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefits of the writ of habeas corpus; 

The above is what the folk yelling about quarantines and stay at home laws are referring to. 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The above is the one where folks are yelling about contact tracing.

Right or wrong, smart or dumb its the system we have. So its not necessarily the leaders, its the constitution. 

 

[Snowy79]

Maybe in the West we have more care homes and that appears to be where the majorityb of the fatalities occured.  Also a lot more clinically obese people and older people wth managed health conditions that in poorer countries they'd probably die of before they got too old.

 

[scott h]

32 minutes ago, Snowy79 said:

clinically obese people and older people wth managed health conditions that in poorer countries they'd probably die of before they got too old.

You have pin pointed one of the inconvenient truths that is so unpolitical correct that it never gets mentioned. But I think you are spot on 

[GeoffH]

2 hours ago, scott h said:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

The problem with that statement (inherently moral as it is) is that it can be interpreted almost any way a person chooses.

What exactly constitutes prohibiting the 'free exercise of religion'?  Is is requiring churches to social distance during services?  Is it requiring churches to limit attendence numbers based upon the size of a church?  Is it requiring churches to conduct serices over the internet?  Or do none of those actions 'prohibit' the free exercise of religion?  The same sorts of arguments can be made about freedom of speech or freedom of the press or the right of the people to peaceably assemble.

People are going to do what they want to do based upon what they believe and it doesn't matter what a constitution says because they're going to choose to read it the way that supports their existing belief system just like with the bible... and that's the reason there are so many versions of the 'one true christian church'.

[OnMyWay]

1 hour ago, scott h said:

You have pin pointed one of the inconvenient truths that is so unpolitical correct that it never gets mentioned. But I think you are spot on 

I have mentioned it several times.  A key reason the U.S. is hit hard because it's citizens are very unhealthy.  All of the co-morbidities that put someone in high risk for death from Covid are rampant in the U.S.  Think about it.  Many obese people have trouble walking to the market and can hardly breath.  If they get a lung disease, it's curtains for them.

Edited July 20, 2020 by OnMyWay

[GeoffH]

2 hours ago, Snowy79 said:

Maybe in the West we have more care homes and that appears to be where the majorityb of the fatalities occured.  Also a lot more clinically obese people and older people wth managed health conditions that in poorer countries they'd probably die of before they got too old.

It's true that poorer people in the Philippines (I've seen it in some family members) tend not to have well managed chronic conditions like Diabetes and High Blood Pressure which leads to what in the west would be regarded as a 'premature and preventable death'.  A couple of years back an Auntie died from a stroke, she'd been prescribed Blood Pressure medication but had stopped taking it because she was struggling to pay her daughters College fees.  And just last week another Auntie (who only 2 weeks before I'd been asked to help with a small amount for medication which I sent) passed away from complications due to Diabetes.  The comment from one of the family members was 'the medicine was too late to do anything'.  Now there is a 14 year old girl (sweet kid) whos lost her mama, whos father is in Manila.  She's moved into the main family house and I sent some peso to there for her.  I can't support the entire extended family but it still makes me sad when it happens :(

I'm wondering how many of these 50 something and 60 something Filipinos with poorly managed health conditions will die of Covid 19 and never be diagnosed because it 'was a stroke' or 'it was pneumonia'... probably quite a few.  Enough to match the Western care facility deaths?  Probably not but I suspect it will still be a substantial portion of those deaths that do happen from Covid in the Philippines.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by GeoffH

[GeoffH]

5 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

I have mentioned it several times.  A key reason the U.S. is hit hard because it's citizens are very unhealthy.  All of the co-morbidities that put someone in high risk for death from Covid are rampant in the U.S.  

I agree... I find it difficult to comprehend the mindset that would convince such a person that they shouldn't wear a mask, shouldn't self isolate and shouldn't be worried by Covid.