jimeve Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said: I have "herd" that term before, but don't sheeple come in a flock? (Humor intended) That's why wales are going into a lockdown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hounddriver Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 13 hours ago, OnMyWay said: What if other countries restrict travel inbound based on having the vaccine? What if the vaccine mutates and has the same effect as the polio vaccine in this article? https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/nov/28/polio-outbreaks-in-four-african-countries-caused-by-mutation-of-strain-in-vaccine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffH Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said: What if the vaccine mutates and has the same effect as the polio vaccine in this article? https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/nov/28/polio-outbreaks-in-four-african-countries-caused-by-mutation-of-strain-in-vaccine Honestly I've never been totally comfortable with live attenuated vaccines of that type because whilst that problem is rare it has occured (as your link shows). OPV (Oral Polio Vaccine) was used in the USA from the early 60s to about 2000 when it's use was stopped, IPV (Injected Polio Vaccine) is now used for at risk people (many travellers) and does not have the same issues because it is an 'innactivated virus vaccine' (so basically the virus is dead not err... crippled and it can't mutate and become infectious again). However of the vaccines being researched for SARS Cov-19 2 (Covid) only 4 are of that type and by preference I'm going to avoid those ones if at all possible. Note there is a difference between a Replicating Viral Vector vaccine and a Live-attenuated vaccine, basically the first uses a second (non harmful) virus that's been genetically engineered where as a Live-attenuated vaccine uses a form of the original virus which has been... err crippled (I can't think of a better word sorry). But what's important is that the RVV vaccines have not suffered from the same issues that occasionally effect Live-attenuated vaccines. In additition to that there are other types of vaccines. DNA, RNA, Virus like particle and others. To the best of my knowledge of the stage III vaccine candidates only 2 of the chinese vaccine candidates are using live-attenuated vaccines (SINOVAC and SINOFARM), personally I'd avoid those two at least in the early stages (but that's just me). Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA and Astra Zenica, Janssen, Gamaleya and CanSino are Replicating Viral Vector vaccines and Novavax is using recombinant technology in a way I'm not up to speed on yet (sorry). NB me using the words 'dead' and 'crippled' to refer to virus particles is highly innacurate because viruses aren't really alive in a strictly scientific sense *but it simplified the explanation* :) Edited October 21, 2020 by GeoffH 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyWay Posted October 21, 2020 Author Posted October 21, 2020 44 minutes ago, hk blues said: I agree but sometimes you have to take a leap of faith OMW. I don't mean in a reckless way but based on the expert opinion - experts who have credibility that is. That is part of the problem. I and others relied on the experts at the beginning. Now those experts have shown their expertise to not be static. It is variable based new findings, public opinion, and politics. Flip, flop. Who are the experts who still have credibility? The link Kuya John posted above bout Sweden: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB How about these people? Credible? https://gbdeclaration.org/ The point is, it is hard to take a leap of faith without knowing who to put your faith in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyWay Posted October 21, 2020 Author Posted October 21, 2020 16 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said: There have been some pretty serious flus in the world, like H1N1. Countries like Canada have included the antivirus for H1N1 in the annual flu shot. Not only is it voluntary, they only distribute enough free flu vaccine for seniors and others deemed vulnerble. My belief is they will do the same with any Covid vaccine they come up with. Another angle. I wonder if Covid vaccine will be added to this list of vaccines. Your kids can't go to school without them, unless you raise medical or religious reasons for not having them. https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/school/school-requirements.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk blues Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, OnMyWay said: That is part of the problem. I and others relied on the experts at the beginning. Now those experts have shown their expertise to not be static. It is variable based new findings, public opinion, and politics. Flip, flop. Who are the experts who still have credibility? The link Kuya John posted above bout Sweden: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB How about these people? Credible? https://gbdeclaration.org/ The point is, it is hard to take a leap of faith without knowing who to put your faith in. Yes OMW, but to be fair we were facing something we hadn't any real experience of, or at least we thought we might be so it's hard to be too critical - from my recollection there were plenty of caveats around the advice/opinion. At the end of the day, we have no choice but to follow the expert opinion/advice so we each have to make that choice but I'm pretty sure there are a host of reputable experts still out there - I'm genuinely not concerned about that aspect of a vaccine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyWay Posted October 21, 2020 Author Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, hk blues said: Yes OMW, but to be fair we were facing something we hadn't any real experience of, or at least we thought we might be so it's hard to be too critical - from my recollection there were plenty of caveats around the advice/opinion. At the end of the day, we have no choice but to follow the expert opinion/advice so we each have to make that choice but I'm pretty sure there are a host of reputable experts still out there - I'm genuinely not concerned about that aspect of a vaccine. I forgot to add, we are at the mercy of what goes on here in the Philippines. Are you going to follow the Philippines recommended vaccination if is from China or Russia, and the first one out the door? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffH Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, OnMyWay said: I forgot to add, we are at the mercy of what goes on here in the Philippines. Are you going to follow the Philippines recommended vaccination if is from China or Russia, and the first one out the door? None of the Russian or Chinese vaccines have gone through a full stage III testing program yet and as such it's hard to recommend them for anything except perhaps emergency use (and even that is dubious). If there was Covid running rampant through an old age home and it was killing people left, right and center then maybe it would be appropriate to go for a hail mary throw and administer it but giving it widely across a population before stage III is completed isn't something that I can imagine most western medical authorities supporting. The situation might be different by next year when stage III results are in or perhaps not so to answer your question I'd have to know if the Philippines recommended vaccine had completed stage III testing by the time that the recommendation was made. It's not a simple question and doesn't have a yes/no answer in my opinion. NB Some stage 1/2 information is available for the Russians (see below). https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31866-3/fulltext Edited October 21, 2020 by GeoffH 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyWay Posted October 21, 2020 Author Posted October 21, 2020 4 hours ago, hk blues said: Yes OMW, but to be fair we were facing something we hadn't any real experience of, or at least we thought we might be so it's hard to be too critical - from my recollection there were plenty of caveats around the advice/opinion. At the end of the day, we have no choice but to follow the expert opinion/advice so we each have to make that choice but I'm pretty sure there are a host of reputable experts still out there - I'm genuinely not concerned about that aspect of a vaccine. I just saw this on FB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum Support Tommy T. Posted October 21, 2020 Forum Support Posted October 21, 2020 11 hours ago, OnMyWay said: I forgot to add, we are at the mercy of what goes on here in the Philippines. Are you going to follow the Philippines recommended vaccination if is from China or Russia, and the first one out the door? So far so good as far as L and I go healthwise. I think we will just sit out early vaccines for a while and see what happens. There are not a lot of infections here in Davao, yet - Mayor Inday seems to be trying to keep a lid on it. Quarantine from 7pm to 5 am sort of helps, I guess... But then I see heavy traffic on the roads all around at 6:30pm and know that all those people will not be home until way past curfew. Then there are always those still going out and partying - like just outside the apartment last night until almost 10pm. Some just don't get it or don't care. And there are so many exceptions to the quarantine that it is almost a joke? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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