Are they nuts?

[Shady]

50 minutes ago, Mike J said:

I think some nations did a much better job than others and I expect it was because they had some sort of disaster plan in place and followed it.  Other nations either had no plan, failed to follow the plan, or simple tried to tell the voters "no big deal, it will just go away on its own". 

You'd need to name all these nations first before you can determine which plan worked and which didn't. Or with a nation like the US,  each state had it's own plan, you'd have to name states.

For example, the disaster we see in states like California and New York who followed the plan of Fauci and Gates and the WHO, compared to the success of Texas and Florida, who rejected their plan.

 

[Mike J]

11 minutes ago, Shady said:

For example, the disaster we see in states like California and New York who followed the plan of Fauci and Gates and the WHO, compared to the success of Texas and Florida, who rejected their plan.

Here is some information about the states you mentioned as well as the "best" and "worst" states with respect to cases per million population.

New York and Florida both above the USA average for covid cases per million population.

California and Texas both below the USA average for covid cases per million population. 

The five states with best records (cases per million) were Washington, Maine, Oregon, Vermont, and Hawaii.

The five states with worst records (cases per million) were North Dakota, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Iowa, Utah

Source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Unable to post the actual page data because of the way it is displayed on web site.

[OnMyWay]

5 minutes ago, Mike J said:

Here is some information about the states you mentioned as well as the "best" and "worst" states with respect to cases per million population.

New York and Florida both above the USA average for covid cases per million population.

California and Texas both below the USA average for covid cases per million population. 

The five states with best records (cases per million) were Washington, Maine, Oregon, Vermont, and Hawaii.

The five states with worst records (cases per million) were North Dakota, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Iowa, Utah

Source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Unable to post the actual page data because of the way it is displayed on web site.

I think DEATHs per million would be better metric to judge success.  However, I think the death numbers are a gray area.  Excess deaths is the best number but not readily available.

This also does not take into consideration economic success / failure nor the impact of draconian lockdowns on society.  Suicides, etc.

[Snowy79]

1 hour ago, OnMyWay said:

I think DEATHs per million would be better metric to judge success.  However, I think the death numbers are a gray area.  Excess deaths is the best number but not readily available.

This also does not take into consideration economic success / failure nor the impact of draconian lockdowns on society.  Suicides, etc.

True.  I was reading up on Sweden who never implemented any major restrictions and although they had their fair share of covid deaths most were in care homes and the death rates were lower than many EU countries. Their economy didn't suffer so much either or mental health issues. You'd need to add in the population size and culture, general health care and lack of cormodities though. 

[hk blues]

Are folk really debating the merits of having a disaster plan in place?Come on guys, the old adage Fail to Plan, Plan to Fail hasn't survived so long for no reason.

I'm not saying all the plans were good ones, obviously they were not. It's all well and good throwing out examples to support/defeat an argument, but the only true test would be to have the same scenario played out in 2 different ways and see which has the better result. We can't do that so what's the point?

 

[Dave Hounddriver]

3 hours ago, Shady said:

You'd need to name all these nations first before you can determine which plan worked and which didn't.

I would not be willing to say what worked and what didn't as there are so many nations and states that did the same thing with different results.  I believe luck, weather, population density and karma played huge parts in all of it.  HOWEVER, those places that locked down successfully and took insane precautions did have better "luck" than other places.  The question becomes:  Did the means justify the results?

Edited June 6, 2021 by Dave Hounddriver

[OnMyWay]

11 minutes ago, hk blues said:

Are folk really debating the merits of having a disaster plan in place?Come on guys, the old adage Fail to Plan, Plan to Fail hasn't survived so long for no reason.

I'm not saying all the plans were good ones, obviously they were not. It's all well and good throwing out examples to support/defeat an argument, but the only true test would be to have the same scenario played out in 2 different ways and see which has the better result. We can't do that so what's the point?

 

I agree that it is next to impossible to compare.  However, looking back, we can make judgements on what parts of plans worked or did not work.  Or are ridiculous, like face shields over 2 masks.

I still think Sweden had a good plan, but they screwed up when they did not protect their elderly.  Hindsight, of course.

[hk blues]

20 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

I agree that it is next to impossible to compare.  However, looking back, we can make judgements on what parts of plans worked or did not work.  Or are ridiculous, like face shields over 2 masks.

I still think Sweden had a good plan, but they screwed up when they did not protect their elderly.  Hindsight, of course.

Taking the Swedish plan - it just amplifies the fact that getting it 90% right (I'm not saying they did) means nothing if the other 10% is wrong. There was little or no margin of error. 

 

[OnMyWay]

2 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

Excess deaths is the best number but not readily available.

I had not looked into this for some time.  There are now some excess deaths numbers by country, for limited countries.  Not sure how accurate they are, given that the data sources would be different. 

The graph gets a bit garbled with more than one country, but if you put your mouse over the legend in the bottom right, it will only show that line.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

Sweden vs. U.S., 18-64 age group:

Sweden

  

U.S.

 

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

[Shady]

7 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

I think DEATHs per million would be better metric to judge success.  However, I think the death numbers are a gray area. 

Correct, deaths is the only metric that matters, the problem is when "the plan" is not to accurately measure deaths from Covid, but to artificially increase or decrease numbers for political reasons:  https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/caught-red-handed-cdc-changes-test-thresholds-virtually-eliminate-new-covid-cases-among

5 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

The question becomes:  Did the means justify the results?

That question has been answered by the people: states like CA and NY that follow the "lockdown / maskup or get arrested" plan see citizens moving out, and states that didn't like TX and FL see them moving in, by the thousands.

And that's a good thing, let those Americans who value the US Constitution and the rights it protects separate from the sheep obeying unelected leaders like Gates (making billions from the sale of vaccines) or those he bankrolls like Fauci, the WHO and the CDC.