Indonesia Regulator Allows Ivermectin Use For Covid Treatment

[Gandang Smile]

20 minutes ago, hk blues said:

It's not illegal if it's written into the law.

You don't have to engage in illegal practices to condone them. 

Many forms of authoritarianism were all legitimised by democratically-elected governments. It's happening all over the world right now. Macron, Johnson, Draghi and the others...nobody asked "we, the People" whether we are OK with legalising a 2-tier social model based on dubious tests, dubious vaccines and even a dubious virus.

The natural consequences are the protests, the proliferation of illegal practices and, probably, an increasing number of people getting tired of complying without knowing exactly why, like a child would do, and changing their minds.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Gandang Smile

[hk blues]

13 minutes ago, Gandang Smile said:

Many forms of authoritarianism were all legitimised by democratically-elected governments. It's happening all over the world right now. Macron, Johnson, Draghi and the others...nobody asked "we, the People" whether we are OK with legalising a 2-tier social model based on dubious tests, dubious vaccines and even a dubious virus.

The natural consequences are the protests, the proliferation of illegal practices and, probably, an increasing number of people getting tired of complying without knowing exactly why, like a child would do, and changing their minds.

 

 

You write as if there is a majority against vaccinations etc - the stats coming out of every country suggest otherwise.  The vaccines are working, they are being accepted by the vast majority of the world's population.  That's good enough for me.  

For the avoidance of doubt - I am not saying the introduction of vaccine passports is appropriate.  

 

[Gandang Smile]

4 hours ago, hk blues said:

You write as if there is a majority against vaccinations etc - the stats coming out of every country suggest otherwise.  The vaccines are working, they are being accepted by the vast majority of the world's population.  That's good enough for me.  

For the avoidance of doubt - I am not saying the introduction of vaccine passports is appropriate.  

I have my opinion on the necessity or efficacy of mass immunisation with the current brands of Covid-19 mRNA vaccines. Yet I am not "no-vaxx". If one wants to be vaccinated, be my guest. I understand a majority of the population is happy to get the vaccine and a small, albeit vocal, minority opposes it.

As you yourself say, I am definitely against the introduction of vaccine passports for even the most trivial social activity, like having a pizza with your wife or friends. It creates a forced choice where some (many?) people will end up getting the shot just so their can have their freedoms back, and those who won't compromise will either have to live like pariah or keep protesting until these measures are dropped.
 
 

[GeoffH]

39 minutes ago, Gandang Smile said:

I am definitely against the introduction of vaccine passports for even the most trivial social activity, like having a pizza with your wife or friends. 

As I should say am I, however there are certain circumstances where I believe they are justifiable.

When crossing a border a lighter quarantine requirement for fully vaccinated individuals (for example quarantine at home vs hotel quarantine is being suggested in Australia for fully vaccinated individuals).

And large crowds at dense potential super spreader events like sports stadiums... well a case can be made for those also.

But your local cafe?  Thats a step too far in my opinion.

Edited July 28, 2021 by GeoffH

[hk blues]

1 hour ago, Gandang Smile said:

I have my opinion on the necessity or efficacy of mass immunisation with the current brands of Covid-19 mRNA vaccines. Yet I am not "no-vaxx". If one wants to be vaccinated, be my guest. I understand a majority of the population is happy to get the vaccine and a small, albeit vocal, minority opposes it.

As you yourself say, I am definitely against the introduction of vaccine passports for even the most trivial social activity, like having a pizza with your wife or friends. It creates a forced choice where some (many?) people will end up getting the shot just so their can have their freedoms back, and those who won't compromise will either have to live like pariah or keep protesting until these measures are dropped.
 
 

 

24 minutes ago, GeoffH said:

As I should say am I, however there are certain circumstances where I believe they are justifiable.

When crossing a border a lighter quarantine requirement for fully vaccinated individuals (for example quarantine at home vs hotel quarantine is being suggested in Australia for fully vaccinated individuals).

And large crowds at dense potential super spreader events like sports stadiums... well a case can be made for those also.

But your local cafe?  Thats a step too far in my opinion.

I'd like to think that we can separate the vaccine and measures to provide ongoing protection to those who have decided to "take the risk" of being vaccinated from those who have not i.e. proof of vaccination or proof of negative test for big events (so-called super spreaders).  Such measures should only be in place until we have reached global herd immunity.  

As for day-to-day activities such as shopping/eating out etc - we either keep ongoing restrictions until we reach herd immunity or we introduce measures to segregate vaxed and non-vaxed i.e. different hours.  This will likely encourage many to go ahead with the vaccines which, in my opinion, is no bad thing as their views obviously weren't that deeply-held.  

 

[Gandang Smile]

It wasn't going to take long before mainstream press caught up with what many alt news sources had been telling for months.

It's vaccinated people who are spreading the virus. They are more dangerous to unvaccinated people than other unvaccinated people. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Gandang Smile

[Dave Hounddriver]

2 hours ago, Gandang Smile said:

It wasn't going to take long before mainstream press caught up with what many alt news sources had been telling for months

Most of us will smirk at a Twitter post . . SO . . I took the time to track down the source of your accurate assessment.  Here is the article:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-recommend-vaccinated-wear-masks-areas-low-vaccination-rates-n1275012

Quote

CDC recommends the vaccinated wear masks in areas with low vaccination rates

CORONAVIRUS

CDC recommends the vaccinated wear masks in areas with low vaccination rates
Administration officials had been struggling in recent days with how to respond to a rising number of Covid-19 infections and hospitalization among those who are fully vaccinated.

July 27, 2021, 7:16 AM PDT / Updated July 28, 2021, 4:22 AM PDT
By Shannon Pettypiece, Heidi Przybyla, Laura Strickler and Meg Tirrell

WASHINGTON — The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new guidance on Tuesday recommending indoor mask use in areas with high transmission rates after new data suggested fully vaccinated individuals are not just contracting Covid-19 but could potentially infect others.

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said recent studies had shown that those vaccinated individuals who do become infected with Covid have just as much viral load as the unvaccinated, making it possible for them to spread the virus to others. Based on that finding, Walensky said the CDC is also recommending that all school children wear masks in the fall.

"We're seeing now that it's actually possible if you're a rare breakthrough infection that you can transmit further, which is the reason for the change," Walensky said.

CDC recommends all students wear masks when they return to school
JULY 27, 202103:35
Following the announcement, staffers around the White House began putting on masks and Vice President Kamala Harris wore one at an event Tuesday afternoon where she called on more Americans to get vaccinated to cut the spread of the virus.

"People need to get vaccinated, that is the only way we are going to cut this thing off, nobody likes wearing a mask, get vaccinated," Harris said.

The White House later said it was requiring all those in the White House and its office buildings to wear masks starting Wednesday.

Meanwhile, the Capitol's attending physician, Brian Monahan, notified House offices Tuesday that "well-fitted, medical grade, filtration face masks" would be required inside House office buildings and the Capitol building. He sent a similar letter to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., recommending senators and staff wear a mask indoors on Capitol Hill in response to new CDC mask guidelines.

Administration officials still contend that the fully vaccinated represent a very small percentage of transmission, which is primarily occurring among unvaccinated people. Walensky said the decision to call a return to mask use wasn't taken lightly, and that she hopes it will be temporary — until the ranks of the vaccinated increase, and the amount of virus circulating in the community decreases.

"It is not a welcomed piece of news that masking is going to be a part of people's lives who have already been vaccinated," Walensky said. "This new data weighs heavily on me, this new guidance weighed heavily on me and I just wanted to convey that this was not a decision that was taken lightly."

The guidance comes after an internal debate among health officials: Whether to respond to these findings by simply informing the public about them or by recommending additional restrictions, including a return to uniform indoor mask use for both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.

Administration officials had been struggling in recent days with how to respond to the rising number of Covid infections and hospitalizations among those who are fully vaccinated amid pressure from public health experts to put mask recommendations back in place. Much of Biden's domestic agenda rides on moving the country past the pandemic and shifting the focus to other priorities, such as infrastructure and voting rights.

Biden said in a statement following the announcement that he would follow the guidance when he travels, and encouraged others to do the same. He also called on more Americans to get vaccinated and said he would detail further plans on Thursday to increase the vaccination rate.

"Today’s announcement by the CDC — that new research and concerns about the delta variant leads CDC to recommend a return to masking in parts of the country — is another step on our journey to defeating this virus. I hope all Americans who live in the areas covered by the CDC guidance will follow it. I certainly will when I travel to these areas," Biden said.

Within the administration, there had been concern that a focus on mask use could take away a key incentive for people to get vaccinated, which they believe was a factor for many people in choosing to get the shot. Some argued the best way to keep the virus under control was to double down on efforts to get as many vaccinated as possible.

“I understand how challenging this is in terms of the vaccine hesitancy and wanting people to get the vaccine,” said Dr. Leana Wen, a former Baltimore health commissioner and a professor and physician at Georgetown University. “But the Biden administration made a serious error in the first place with their CDC guidance on masks and it is really hard to put the genie back in the bottle.”

White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Monday the president will follow all CDC guidance around wearing masks when traveling to places where they are recommended.

While the Covid vaccines have led to a steep decline in new infections, deaths and hospitalizations, multiple studies have found they are less effective against the new delta variant that now accounts for the vast majority of infections in the United States.

CONGRESS
Pelosi, McCarthy trade barbs over return of House mask mandate
With the virus still widely circulating in many places where there are low vaccination rates, that has put the vaccinated at increased risk the virus will break through the layer of protection. In some states, particularly in the South, just over a third of the population is fully vaccinated.

Given how infectious the variant is, some health experts are now also questioning the effectiveness of standard cloth masks and advocating for more effective masks like the KN95 to be recommended for indoor use for all, particularly among the elderly and the immunocompromised. One study found those infected with the delta variant carried 1,000 times the virus as with earlier strains.

The worrisome data comes just weeks after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said vaccinated individuals can go about their business without masks. Administration officials had been concerned a return to widespread mask mandates could actually stunt the broader vaccination drive by taking away an incentive for getting the shots.

Despite a push over the last two month by the Biden administration to increase the number of people getting vaccinated, the number of daily shots has plateaued at around 500,000 per day, and Biden has yet to reach his July 4 goal of getting 70 percent of adults at least partially vaccinated.

Just how widespread infections among the vaccinated are in the U.S. is unknown. The CDC said in May it would stop monitoring the number of infections in vaccinated people aside from cases where a fully vaccinated person was hospitalized or died. Walensky said on Monday the agency has been tracking specific groups for breakthrough infections and would be reporting that data soon.

The limited data so far has left doctors saying they feel they are flying blind in trying to assess the risk the new variant poses to their patients and relying on data out of other countries like Israel, where researchers released data last week showing the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was just 39 percent effective against preventing infection from the delta variant and 91 percent effective at preventing severe disease.

“It is a very short-sighted policy to not be collecting that data because they are worried that it will be misinterpreted by people who think vaccines don’t work,” said Christopher Murray, director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington. “It is essentially making us a little blind to what is actually going on.”

But despite the lack of data from the CDC, anecdotal evidence is widespread, with high-profile cases of groups of fully vaccinated individuals getting infected — like a group of Democrats from the Texas Legislature, a White House official, a group of New York Yankees, and an Olympic athlete.

Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research at the University of Minnesota who advised the Biden transition, said he is particularly concerned about the increasing number of instances he is hearing about where groups of vaccinated individuals are becoming infected. The CDC has said the data indicates the vaccinated can’t spread the virus to other vaccinated people, but Osterholm said the clusters of cases among the vaccinated suggest otherwise.

In one cluster of more than 200 cases in Provincetown, Massachusetts, 70 percent of the Covid positive cases since July 1 have been among vaccinated individuals, Town Manager Alex Morse said in an MSNBC interview.

A small percentage of those who are fully vaccinated also continue to be hospitalized and die from the virus, particularly in areas seeing a surge in cases from the delta variant.

At the Texas Medical Center in Houston, 10 percent of more than 250 hospitalized Covid patients were vaccinated, a hospital spokesperson said. In Las Vegas, 11 percent of Covid hospitalizations in July had been fully vaccinated people, according to the Southern Nevada Health District. A spokesperson for University of Kansas Health System said July 15 that 16 percent of inpatients were fully vaccinated people.

Hospital officials added, though, that those who are vaccinated are less likely to be in the ICU or die, and nearly all who were admitted after vaccinations had serious underlying conditions.

Nationwide, the CDC has tracked more than 4,000 cases of fully vaccinated people being hospitalized with symptoms of Covid as of July 19, up 9 percent from the week earlier. The agency said a total of 849 vaccinated people have died, including 58 the week of July 12, according to data reported to the CDC by local health departments.

 

 

[Snowy79]

9 hours ago, Gandang Smile said:

It wasn't going to take long before mainstream press caught up with what many alt news sources had been telling for months.

It's vaccinated people who are spreading the virus. They are more dangerous to unvaccinated people than other unvaccinated people. 

I usually give up reading when a report states " citing unnamed officials" but I did some research and the news is pretty old now as the real experts have been saying for a while that even vaccinated people can carry and transmit covid but every bit of evidence shows they are better protected against the serious effects of the virus. As more of the population get vaccinated the laws of averages state that more vaccinated people will be turning up at hospital but again the figures show those ones are predominantly with underlying health issues n the first place. 

Vey few if any vaccines are 100% efficient against catching a disease and it is well reported, whether it's the flu, polio, measles, mumps, rubella etc.  They all have their own efficiency depending on each individuals immune system responce yet the antivax crowd make it out that the covid vaccine is the first one not to be 100% efficient.

A bit like treating a few dozen people with Invernmectin against a disease that has an over 99% survival rate amongst the general population and as over 99% given Invermectin have survived it must be the Invermectin that saved them. 

[Gandang Smile]

8 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

Most of us will smirk at a Twitter post . . SO . . I took the time to track down the source of your accurate assessment.  Here is the article:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-recommend-vaccinated-wear-masks-areas-low-vaccination-rates-n1275012

 

Well spotted.

Just read that USA Today have removed that paragraph from their article (even from copies stored elsewhere on their portal).

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/usa-today-scrubs-new-evidence-suggesting-covid-vaccine-may-spread-virus

USA Today Scrubs Passage Suggesting Vaccinated Individuals May Spread COVID With 'Higher Levels' Of Virus

“NBC News, citing unnamed officials aware of the decision, reported it comes after new data suggests vaccinated individuals could have higher levels of virus and infect others amid the surge of cases driven by the delta variant of the coronavirus,” the USA Today reported in a passage that was later scrubbed from an article.

A screenshot from the article and an online archive of the passage points out the surfacing evidence.

The story from the USA Today drops the reference to NBC News, but nonetheless corroborates the news: “CDC says vaccinated people may transmit virus, recommends masks indoors.”

“CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said new data shows the delta variant, which accounts for more than 80% of the new infections in the U.S., behaves ‘uniquely differently’ from its predecessors and could make vaccinated people infectious,” the article notes.

“Information on the delta variant from several states and other countries indicates that in rare occasions some vaccinated people infected with the delta variant after vaccination may be contagious and spread the virus to others,” Walensky said in announcing new guidance, which reverses a CDC recommendation in May. “This new science is worrisome and unfortunately warrants an update to our recommendation.”

NBC News reported on the CDC guidance reversal on Monday.

“The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended Tuesday that fully vaccinated people begin wearing masks indoors again in places with high Covid-19 transmission rates,” NBC News reported. “The agency is also recommending kids wear masks in schools this fall.”

“Federal health officials still believe fully vaccinated individuals represent a very small amount of transmission,” the report continued. “Still, some vaccinated people could be carrying higher levels of the virus than previously understood and potentially transmit it to others.”
 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Gandang Smile

[Gandang Smile]

1 hour ago, Snowy79 said:

I usually give up reading when a report states " citing unnamed officials" but I did some research and the news is pretty old now as the real experts have been saying for a while that even vaccinated people can carry and transmit covid but every bit of evidence shows they are better protected against the serious effects of the virus. As more of the population get vaccinated the laws of averages state that more vaccinated people will be turning up at hospital but again the figures show those ones are predominantly with underlying health issues n the first place. 

Vey few if any vaccines are 100% efficient against catching a disease and it is well reported, whether it's the flu, polio, measles, mumps, rubella etc.  They all have their own efficiency depending on each individuals immune system responce yet the antivax crowd make it out that the covid vaccine is the first one not to be 100% efficient.

A bit like treating a few dozen people with Invernmectin against a disease that has an over 99% survival rate amongst the general population and as over 99% given Invermectin have survived it must be the Invermectin that saved them. 

Again, I 100% agree on your statements that no vaccine is 100% efficient and infection/contagion are still possible.

Again, what I am up against is the political use of the vaccine, to create a two-tier society.