The agony of nurses and of a country that lacks them

[Dave Hounddriver]

1 hour ago, KC813 said:

Strangely enough Dave, yes:  the Philippines does not lack nurses.

Ah yes.  Now we are getting into the meat of it.  Canada also would not lack nurses if we forced them to stay in Canada instead of moving to countries like the USA where they can make more money.

But the issue is  How long should a government be able to force their citizens to stay home rather than go somewhere they choose to move to?  In Canada there is a plan to train nurses on the condition that they stay and work in that area for at least one year after training is complete.  Its fair, but we still lack nurses in the same way the Philippines does.

I asked if anybody here could think of a country that is not lacking nurses.  Let me expand on that to ask if anyone here would accept their country telling them they could not leave for work elsewhere if that was their choice?

And one final point.  How many nurses would the Philippines have if nursing students were told they cannot leave the country if they became a nurse?

[hk blues]

2 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

Let me expand on that to ask if anyone here would accept their country telling them they could not leave for work elsewhere if that was their choice?

Let's take it one step back (or forward) - many companies employee the 'golden handcuff' system where employees are tied to their company in return for receiving some special training. It's not that different to the scenario you mention.  The caveat being that always there is the option of repaying the training costs and there must be a reasonable time limit for the restriction.  

[jimeve]

7 hours ago, hk blues said:

Let's take it one step back (or forward) - many companies employee the 'golden handcuff' system where employees are tied to their company in return for receiving some special training. It's not that different to the scenario you mention.  The caveat being that always there is the option of repaying the training costs and there must be a reasonable time limit for the restriction.  

Part of the cost of training them comes from working in a hospital for zero salary, then when they are qualified nurse's they work for a pittance.

My wife's brother has recently completed a German language course and is waiting for his visa to work in Germany fully qualified nurse. Paid from an agency he will pay all expediencies from his German salary.

[Possum]

My wife is a nursing graduate. She assures me NO one goes to nursing school to work in the Philippine medical system. Their goal is to leave the Philippines and make a decent wage. The private hospitals in the Philippines pay a lower wage than the public hospitals even though they make a VERY nice profit. The public hospitals over load the nurses with patients. She said public hospitals are where you go to die while awaiting treatment. In some maternity wards there are 3 moms in one bed. A neighbor recently had a swollen appendix and went to a public hospital. Was in great pain with no pain medication or a doctor for 3 days. Finally had her appendix removed but no pain medication afterwards. Medieval care. The nurses that care leave this horrid system for better money and patient care at the first chance.

I had care at a  private major Manila hospital. The nurses were great but all planned to leave. As one said, "I went to school for 4 years and cannot live on what I make. Why should I stay?"

[Dave Hounddriver]

3 hours ago, Greglm said:

My wife is a nursing graduate. She assures me NO one goes to nursing school to work in the Philippine medical system.

On the bright side.  I met a few older nurses and doctors, while in the Philippines, who did their time in another country then came back to semi-retire in the Philippines.  Very good at their job.  I suspect there are many who go to nursing school in the Philippines with the intent to leave, and then come home 20 years later with a great deal of experience to offer.

[scott h]

1 hour ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

who did their time in another country then came back to semi-retire in the Philippines.

I have met one or two of these also Dave, but I believe that they are the minority, IMHO. I think it really depends on the country that they go to.

Of my 4 nieces, 3 are nurses. 2 went to the States, then sponsored their parents who followed them. 1 went to OZ, married a Phil/OZ,  then sponsored her sister who is in IT. None plan to return. Of my wifes first cousins most were in the medical field and all, overtime, made their way by dribbles and drabs to the States, started families and have no intention of returning on a fulltime basis. 

Ironically one of MY reasons for reasons for retiring here is so my wife could be close to her family...but they ALL LEFT! 

I think it is safe to generalize that if a nurse goes to the US, Britain, Canada, OZ or one of the EU countries, they are gone for good. The Brain Drain problem is real. 

 

[mountainside]

Slightly off-topic, but my daughter is an American MSRN who's spent a career supervising nurses, many from other countries.  Many have been Filipinos, including a Pinoy MD who came to the US to work as a nurse.  Daughter say the Filipinos have been the best of her nurses.  Aside from the compassionate and nurturing dispositions, they don't break stride when equipment breaks down or weird things happen.  She jokes that if she ever needs open heart surgery performed with a paper clip, it will be done by one of her Filipino nurses.  

[JJReyes]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:14 PM, hk blues said:

Let's take it one step back (or forward) - many companies employee the 'golden handcuff' system where employees are tied to their company in return for receiving some special training. It's not that different to the scenario you mention.  The caveat being that always there is the option of repaying the training costs and there must be a reasonable time limit for the restriction.  

The University of the Philippines Medical School makes their students sign a contract they will remain in the country for a certain number of years after graduation.  The reasoning is their education is subsidized by the government and it is repaid by remaining in-country to render their professional services.  The Bureau of Immigration and POEA won't allow international departure without an okay from UP.  There are loopholes like stating that going overseas is for additional training.

[fillipino_wannabe]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:01 AM, JJReyes said:

The University of the Philippines Medical School makes their students sign a contract they will remain in the country for a certain number of years after graduation.  The reasoning is their education is subsidized by the government and it is repaid by remaining in-country to render their professional services.  The Bureau of Immigration and POEA won't allow international departure without an okay from UP.  There are loopholes like stating that going overseas is for additional training.

My Brother in law is studying at medicine at UP. You have to work in the Philippines for double the course time before they let you go abroad, I think it's 8 years for nurses and 16 years for doctors. He'll be nearly 50 before he's allowed to work as a doctor abroad.