Missing Sub

[Snowy79]

On 6/22/2023 at 2:59 AM, Dave Hounddriver said:

It seems that all of the search craft of the Western World cannot locate one little exploration submarine when they know it is somewhere near the wreck of the Titanic.

How then, can we have any faith that our military can find enemy subs if it comes to that?

WTF?  Are we any more advanced than in WW2 times when it comes to locating subs?

If there is anyone left who is unaware of this.  Here is a link. It is live updates for the sub search so anyone reading this months down the road may not find anything at the link.

I think the big difference is the depth military submarines usually operate. Anything over 900m depth is pushing it for military submarines and around about 50m to be able to launch. 

As for detection the main sonobhoys are also limited in depth to about 2km the last I checked. The Titanic sits at about 3.75km. 

[Mike J]

1 hour ago, Lee said:

You are exactly right 55---citing a source is always the best.

As we saw yesterday though, some will immediately discount as rubbish anything posted that is attributed to a source that they don't care for. By leaving the source of out of  my post as I did this time, might encourage interested people to do a quick search on their own and at least read the article before discounting it.

For further clarification, reread some of the "Covid" thread from yesterday and note how quickly things devolved because of the source cited. 

I did a google search using this text;  "Coast Guard "refused the help" lost sub".  Below is only thing that relates at all.  The only "refusal of help" came from the Greek ship full of immigrants that sank.  Perhaps your source got something confused?    

https://time.news/the-rescue-of-the-titan-and-the-migration-tragedy-in-greece-bring-to-the-fore-the-western-double-standards/

On the one hand, a submersible called Titan lost at almost 4,000 meters deep with five millionaire crew members who were doing “turismo” submarine. In the other, called Andrianamore than 700 migrants who left with their clothes from Libya in a large boat bound for the Italian coast which sank off the Greek coast causing the death of at least 81 of its occupants and another close to 500 remain missing.

The media

The media have dedicated hours of media attention to the first, and they participate in the search operation US and Canadian agencies, navies and commercial offshore companiesall of them collaborating in the rescue operation, which is being coordinated from Boston (Massachusetts). In the case of the second, attention has only been provided when lifeless bodies have begun to emerge after the shipwreck and the rescue tasks have been carried out with the participation of a navy frigate, three ships and a helicopter. Two completely opposite scenarios that have brought to the fore the western double standards with regard to maritime rescues.

Chances of staying alive

On board the Titan, the options of being rescued alive have vanished at 1:08 p.m. this Thursday when, according to the forecasts, the air reserves of the submarine Those of the Andriana crew members are now null after a few weeks adrift at sea. Only 104 people were rescued after the shipwreck occurred on Wednesday, most of Syria, Egypt and Pakistan. On the Titan, they traveled two of the richest men in pakistan: businessman Shahzada Dawood (48 years old), based in London and friend of the King of England, and his son Suleman (19). On the Adriana, about half of the crew were also Pakistanis, but with conflicting economic conditions.

Call for help and rescue

The Greek authorities maintain that the ship refused any help and maintained that it was not at risk until shortly before capsizing, but the data analyzed by the British channel BBC from the MarineTraffic portal seems to reveal navigation problems, amid growing criticism of the Coast Guard for its attitude during the incident. According to the first investigations, the first warning of danger was issued at 10 in the morning and was received by Greek coast guards and Frontex, the european maritime border security agency. From then on, it is unknown how the relationship between the rescue services and the barge developed, because the versions are contradictory. According to the Greek authorities, the migrants refused the help and it was not until 12:40 a.m. on June 14 that help was officially requested, but it was too late and in a matter of minutes, the ship sank. The Greek version has been contested by some survivors and by journalistic investigations.

On the other hand, in the rescue of the Titan, according to the US Coast Guard, contact with the submersible was lost after one hour and 45 minutes of immersion, with five people on board. The Titan began its descent to the seabed at 2:00 p.m. and the vessel was reported lost at 9:13 p.m. local time on Sunday, June 18, just 13 minutes after the time it was supposed to have surfaced. At 11:40 p.m., the Canadian Coast Guard received the alert and began rescue efforts. Aerial surveillance means have been added to the device with C-130 or P3 planes and ships equipped with underwater robots, military ships and private companies. The assets deployed by the US and Canadian militaries continue to arrive at the place where the Polar Prince, the ship from which the Titan submersible left. A Canadian ship with medical personnel and a decompression chamber also arrived in the vicinity.

Related news

As for the responsibilities, in the case of the shipwreck in Greece, on June 16, they were Several people arrested. Nine in the Hellenic country and ten in Pakistan accused of human trafficking. In the case of the Titan, on the other hand, it has emerged that in 2018, a former director of the company, David Lochridge, was fired after raising serious doubts about the submersible safety. No action has yet been taken in this regard, although it is known that the company that owns it had been warned on several occasions of the recklessness of its tourist expeditions to the Titanic.

While the passengers of the Andriana were looking for a way to escape war and hardship and intended to arrive in Italy to start a new life in better conditions, the crew of the Titan found themselves in exclusive tourist expedition to visit the remains of the Titanic, the ship that sank in 1912 in the waters of Newfoundland with 2,500 people on board. In Syria, Egypt and Pakistan, the three main countries where the migrants from the shipwreck came from, the socio-economic situation is not good, and most undertook the journey in search of a future for themselves and their families. In the case of the Titan, the intention was to visit the Titanic, the wreck is located about 600 kilometers off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada, at a depth of 3,800 meters below the sea surface and on occasions there had been talk of the complication of the operation. Her shipwreck occurred in 1912 and she ended up with more than 1,500 deceased, and the remains of the wreck were not located until 1985. To undertake this trip, the underwater tourists signed an accident waiver document.

[OnMyWay]

With some, everything is a conspiracy, until it is not.  And even then, many don't want to accept the truth, and instead, put their blinders back on, because the truth does not fit their narrative.  So many examples out there.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/20/missing-submarine-titan-titanic-rescue-mission-blocked/

British rescue mission for Titan ‘blocked by US officials’
Remotely operated vehicle capable of winching submersible out of the Atlantic waiting to leave airport in Channel Islands

By
Jamie Bullen
20 June 2023 • 9:59am
OceanGate Expeditions submersible vessel Titan, which has gone missing during a voyage to the Titanic shipwreck
OceanGate Expeditions submersible vessel Titan, which has gone missing during a voyage to the Titanic shipwreck CREDIT: American Photo Archive/Alamy
A remotely operated vehicle capable of winching the stricken submersible Titan out of the Atlantic has been blocked from joining the rescue mission by the US government, The Telegraph understands.

A team from deepwater specialists Magellan Limited has been waiting to leave an airport in the Channel Islands since 7pm on Monday, but approval for take-off has yet to be received.

The Guernsey-based firm produced the first full-sized digital scan of the Titanic last summer, the largest underwater project of its kind as two submarines put together 700,000 images of the wreck.

Bretton Hunchak, former president of RMS Titanic, Inc, which collaborated with Magellan, says the company has essential equipment and expertise to help locate OceanGate’s Titan submersible that went missing on a dive to the wreck of the luxury passenger liner, which sank in the North Atlantic Ocean in April 1912.

But despite receiving apparent clearance from the Ministry of Defence to leave UK airspace, the American government has allegedly yet to authorise the team’s request to join rescuers 435 miles south of St John’s, Newfoundland.

Mr Hunchak said US officials have indicated they would prefer to use a New York-based vessel capable of exploring 3,000m below water, whereas Magellan’s can plunge depths of up to 5,000m.

He added Magellan’s remotely operated vehicle was unique in that it was likely the only asset available to have a winch capable of dragging submersibles from the depths of the ocean. It can also detect signals and send them above the surface.

A rescue operation is underway in search of the technologically advanced submersible vessel Titan
A rescue operation is underway in search of the technologically advanced submersible vessel Titan CREDIT: OceanGate Expeditions
Mr Hunchak said the desperate situation was “painful” to him as he described Paul-Henry Nargeolet, a Frenchman reported to be among those on the submersible, as a “personal mentor”.

He told The Telegraph: “We have British, French and US citizens on board and every minute here counts. This is not a rational decision, this is the only asset we have with a winch and the guys are experts in this area.

“Why not run both vessels? The more help we can get the better and denying us means you are giving up on every option you have to save lives.

“These are irreplaceable human beings.”

tmg.video.placeholder.alt no0RVoIbvK4
Mr Hunchak said he was hopeful the seven-strong team would be able to fly out to join the mission later on Tuesday.

His pleas have been echoed by David Concannon, an adviser to OceanGate.

Mr Concannon told NewsNation: “They are the same group, the experts, that did the advanced survey of the Titanic last year.

“They are mobilised. They’re sitting on the tarmac, ready to go. We have a ship off Newfoundland that is ready to take them to the site.

“We have people whose lives are at stake. You have to move. We have assets that are ready to go and they’re sitting and waiting.”

Meanwhile, Brandon Williams, the Republican congressman and former Navy officer, has called for the US to deploy a nuclear submarine to search for the missing watercraft.

He tweeted: 

On Tuesday, the Ministry of Defence said it was on hand to help the mission, but it emerged Nato’s submarine rescue system (NSRS) will not be able to reach the stricken vessel. 

An NSRS submersible can operate at depths of up to 610m, while the Titanic wreck is much deeper at 3,800m.

A spokesman said: “As the host nation for Nato’s multi-national submarine rescue capability, we continue to monitor the incident in the North Atlantic and will guide and assist in any response activity as appropriate.”

A rescue mission involving the US Coast Guard and an aircraft that can detect underwater vessels took place on Monday as rescuers raced to reach the group before their oxygen supplies were exhausted.

The submersible has 96 hours of oxygen, and rescuers warned that it could take up to two days to reach the ocean floor if the craft had sunk there.

The OceanGate Expeditions tour group, which takes explorers to the depths of the Atlantic for $250,000 (£195,000) per person, is believed to have lost contact when the vessel was directly above the Titanic wreck.

[Possum]

Now it appears that US Navy listening devices picked up the implosion when it happened days ago. Those things are scattered around everywhere so its not surprising they picked it up. They reported this to the USCG after they analyzed the recording. Probably something on the order of,"Something imploded close to the Titanic, can't say it was the Titan but...." at any rate I suppose it's better to be turned into bits and pieces of mush instantly than slowly die of oxygen deprivation.

[Joe LP]

25 minutes ago, Greglm said:

Now it appears that US Navy listening devices picked up the implosion when it happened days ago. Those things are scattered around everywhere so its not surprising they picked it up. They reported this to the USCG after they analyzed the recording. Probably something on the order of,"Something imploded close to the Titanic, can't say it was the Titan but...." at any rate I suppose it's better to be turned into bits and pieces of mush instantly than slowly die of oxygen deprivation.

Very true.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12224913/Top-secret-Navy-sonar-detected-Titan-sub-implosion-HOURS-submersible-lost-contact.html 

https://www.insider.com/navy-detected-titanic-subs-implosion-soon-after-went-missing-wsj-2023-6 

https://news.yahoo.com/navy-first-detected-titan-subs-221226319.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAI3zymjHHUQJYI6FDg7O8cscf1ec1YEFTtbHDCyk2fVsdKTz9pbWtWJPT1ZbahMei-E5eKAN2Uo5PTyGUDsRzw4HIx7jWB1YkQiEd-aJ-NsA1o_sHuVSZZKzvpKot5lFia2gnJmcpx6HVjD91NGxf3FnV8_irl4LiB7ffB2XJsii 

Based on this reality, who cares if some Brits wanted to find it or not.  The people were dead.  Doubt any real serious hunts were done by the Coast Guard or Navy.  Pretty clear the explosion meant they were dead.  Why rush a search.  It'd be like trying to find the body of a person who already had a limb and head found.  Why rush?  

[Mike J]

7 hours ago, Lee said:

Reports suggest that the Coast Guard refused the help of a civilian firm that specializes in deep sea work. CG claimed that the search area was the size of Connecticut.

The civilian firm rejected this idea and stated that they knew right where the sub was located. Eventually, the CG relented---the firm went right to the sub and its debris field---reported as much and then was run off by the CG.  IDK.

Some of your post does not seem to make sense; "they knew right where the sub was located".  How is that even possible if they were not on site?

"the firm went right to the sub and its debris field"  Not according to the news

<snip>The debris field was found by a remotely operated vehicle deployed by Horizon Arctic, a Canadian vessel. A debris field has been discovered within the search area by a remotely operated underwater vehicle near the Titanic, the US Coast Guard has said.<end snip>

source doc;   https://news.sky.com/video/missing-sub-debris-field-discovered-within-search-area-near-titanic-us-coast-guard-says-12907807#:~:text=The debris field was found,Horizon Arctic%2C a Canadian vessel.&text=A debris field has been,US Coast Guard has said.

If in fact "they went right to the sight", "found the debris" and were "run off" by the coast guard, what is the source for those claims?  

 

[Joey G]

When I worked for the Navy there was saying we had about accidents that rang true 99.99% of time... "First reports are never accurate".  Even on accidents that one can clearly put eyes on... the  conclusions drawn on the first observation are typically wrong.  

Add in that news organizations consistently take things out of context and have no problem "reporting" their opinion as fact.  When they can't get traction on the accident, they start looking for a scapegoat to continue the story.  

[Lee]

Missing Titanic Sub Once Faced Massive Lawsuit Over Depths It Could Safely Travel To

Court documents reveal a former OceanGate employee had several safety complaints over the tourist submersible—and then he was fired.

Quote

 

The tourist submersible that went missing while exploring the Titanic wreck was previously the target of safety complaints from an employee of OceanGate, the parent company that owns the sub and runs tourist expeditions of the wreck. That employee complained specifically that the sub was not capable of descending to such extreme depths before he was fired.

That’s according to legal documents obtained by The New Republic. According to the court documents, in a 2018 case, OceanGate employee David Lochridge, a submersible pilot, voiced concerns about the safety of the sub. According to a press release, Lochridge was director of marine operations at the time, “responsible for the safety of all crew and clients.” 

The concerns Lochridge voiced came to light as part of a breach of contract case related to Lochridge refusing to greenlight manned tests of the early models of the submersible over safety concerns. Lochridge was fired, and then OceanGate sued him for disclosing confidential information about the Titan submersible. In response, Lochridge filed a compulsory counterclaim where he alleged wrongful termination over being a whistleblower about the quality and safety of the submersible.

Lochridge, in his counterclaim, alleged that “rather than addressing Lochridge’s concerns, OceanGate instead summarily terminated Lochridge’s employment in efforts to silence Lochridge and to avoid addressing the safety and quality control issues.”

The counterclaim said that:

Given the prevalent flaws in the previously tested 1/3 scale model, and the visible flaws in the carbon end samples for the Titan, Lochridge again stressed the potential danger to passengers of the Titan as the submersible reached extreme depths. The constant pressure cycling weakens existing flaws resulting in large tears of the carbon. Non-destructive testing was critical to detect such potentially existing flaws in order to ensure a solid and safe product for the safety of the passengers and crew.

The counterclaim also details a meeting at OceanGate’s Everett, Washington, facility with engineering staff where “several individuals had expressed concerns over to the Engineering Director.” The OceanGate CEO, Stockton Rush, asked Lochridge to conduct a quality inspection of the Titan. Per the complaint:

Over the course of the next several days, Lochridge worked on his report and requested paperwork from the Engineering Director regarding the viewport design and pressure test results of the viewport for the Titan, along with other key information. Lochridge was met with hostility and denial of access to the necessary documentation that should have been freely available as part of his inspection process.

Lochridge initially verbally expressed concerns about the safety and quality of the Titan submersible to OceanGate executive management, but those concerns were ignored. Lochridge “identified numerous issues that posed serious safety concerns, and offered corrective action and recommendations for each.” Lochridge was particularly concerned about “non-destructive testing performed on the hull of the Titan” but he was “repeatedly told that no scan of the hull or Bond Line could be done to check for delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull.” He was also told there was no such equipment that could conduct a test like that.

After Lochridge issued his inspection report, OceanGate officials convened a meeting on January 19, 2018, with the CEO, human resources director, engineering director, Lochridge, and the operations director. Per the complaint:

At the meeting Lochridge discovered why he had been denied access to the viewport information from the Engineering department—the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters. Lochridge learned that the viewport manufacturer would only certify to a depth of 1,300 meters due to experimental design of the viewport supplied by OceanGate, which was out of the Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (“PVHO”) standards. OceanGate refused to pay for the manufacturer to build a viewport that would meet the required depth of 4,000 meters.

The Titanic is estimated to sit on the ocean floor at a depth of nearly 4,000 meters.

Paying passengers wouldn’t know or be informed about Lochridge’s concerns, according to his complaints. They also wouldn’t be informed “that hazardous flammable materials were being used within the submersible.” Lochridge expressed concerns about the Titan again. But OceanGate didn’t address those concerns, and Lochridge was fired.

The case between Lochridge and OceanGate didn’t advance much further, and a few months later the two parties settled.

 

https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate

[mountainside]

Millions of dollars were spent on a futile rescue attempt of five people aboard that submersible, including a millionaire and a billionaire, both of whom who didn't see the need to pay for a rescue craft above them.  I feel sorry for the son who followed his father into that submersible.

Cost of the search:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/23/titan-search-cost/

Wealth of Harding and Dawood:  https://www.forbesindia.com/article/news/titanic-tourist-submersible-missing-pakistani-millionaires-on-board-what-we-know-so-far/85977/1