Warning To Foreigners Investing With Robinsons

[FlyAway]

Get the money fast so you can get your commission fast. There is a salesman's way of thinking.Start a project with minimal investment and get others to buy into it. Classic business "OPM". "Other Peoples Money"! Those that start these projects do not invest that much money up front. They convince others it is a good idea. As others invest in it then the original people get their up front money plus a lot more. So what if the project later stalls due to some unforeseen reason. They are off the the next start up.

[Tom in Texas]

... lucky for us... our area has boomed and has developed nicely into an upscale suburb! (see link below) http://www.google.co...iw=1260&bih=664

Nice photo's, Art. I specially like the Bavarian-style castle on page 2 of the photos. I'm checking into buying it so I can have you & Lee & Jake... oh what the heck... all the Forum members (and of course, their beautiful wives or gfs) over for drinks.Let's see any pickpockets or scam artists try to scale these walls to crash our parties.

[Art2ro]

... lucky for us... our area has boomed and has developed nicely into an upscale suburb! (see link below) http://www.google.co...iw=1260&bih=664

Nice photo's, Art. I specially like the Bavarian-style castle on page 2 of the photos. I'm checking into buying it so I can have you & Lee & Jake... oh what the heck... all the Forum members (and of course, their beautiful wives or gfs) over for drinks.Let's see any pickpockets or scam artists try to scale these walls to crash our parties.

Hope your castle will have a pool table, a stage with a dance pole, target shooting range for sniper rifles and small arms, a draw bridge with a mote like sh&t river in Subic (gold coins preferred) and a tennis court for you know who! Hey! That covers all of us! Edited February 22, 2011 by Fil/AmArt

[vance]

To all the prospective buyers, especially foreigners, of property from Robinsons Land Corporation (RLC), I want to relate my experience to warn you of their unfair practice and bad faith.I bought a unit in June 2008, reopen for sale, just a few months before the end of the construction of Tower II Adriatico Place, Ermita, Manila. I was assisted by 2 agents from RLC, who showed me a large studio unit. We checked the floor plan that indicated an area of 40 sqm. I decided to buy the unit at the price of PHP 2.9M payable in 3 installment in 3 months. I was told the unit should be ready by September or at the latest end of the year 2008.We signed the contract of sale and the payment was finished in due time. I was then informed that the unit will be delivered on December 11, 2008. So I traveled from France to come and accept the unit. This is where it all started going wrong, and it's not so much the facts but the attitude and denial of RLC that is revolting and cannot be tolerated.When I met with my agent on December 12 on site to view the unit, we both found out that the unit was in fact not ready to be delivered at all. Neither myself or my agent had been informed.We still went upstairs to check the status. I followed the agents into a unit in construction, far from being finished, no tiles, toilet, etc Then I came out and realised when i saw the door sign that they had just shown me unit 35-C whereas I bought unit 35-B. I wonder what would have happened if I had not noticed their mistake. Anyway agents embarrassingly showed me unit 35-B which was a smaller unit and still far from being finished. Later the engineer on site explained that the 35th floor had been redesigned since my visit in June hence the changes in my unit!!! Thanks for letting me know so quickly. I hold a letter from my agent confirming all these facts. I will post it too.I handed a letter of complain to their head office the day after. Since then I complain and tried everything to convince RLC to compensate me for:- failing to deliver the unit that I viewed during sale phase; I cannot categorically accuse the agents to deliberately show me a wrong better unit during pre-sale phase, but it is still unfair and requires compensation- causing expenses by requesting my trip to the Philippines whereas my unit was still under construction and never informing me of any changes or delay.To cut a long story short, RLC basically ignored my request the first 6 months, then asked me to come see the unit again in June (without apologizing for the delay or even mentioning my complain!). The unit was delivered that time, but it was still not the unit that I viewed during the sale. I didn't accept the unit. They finally addressed my complain, completely denying the incident and the contradicting their engineer when he said and showed that 35th floor had been modified, see below:"Contrary to what has been relayed by your Account Manager and the site engineer when you visited the site,there has been no re-labelling of units in 35th floor of Two Adriatico Place. Please be advised that your attached plan is the typical floor planfor 8th to 34th floor. In this regard, if this plan was referred to during your site visit, Unit 35B corresponds to Unit C of the typical floor plan. Furthermore, the constructed Unit 35B at site has a final measurement of 36.29 sq.m, which is consistent to the Contract to Sell which youexecuted and was notarized on 5 December 2008. In this light, no correction is necessary as it has been determined that the constructed unit is in adherence to your purchased unit."Of course, how could I miss that? RLC agents show me a floor plan with a unit B ticked, but I have to figure out that my unit B is in fact represented by unit C in that floor plan.Yes it is true that the contract says 36.29 sqm, but what prevails, the size in the contract or the size of the unit that RLC agents show to me in pre-sale?Seeing that clearly they were not willing to help solve my problem or ease my painful experience as a customer, I chose to avoid battling years against them in court, and decided to focus on something they could not possible deny. The fact they told me to come receive the unit on December 11, 2008 and that the unit was not ready by any means (I also took pictures to show you the condition).And this is their answer, after months of taking me from Customer Service to Turnover Department and vice-versa:"We reaffirm that the said unit was complete in accordance with the standard deliverables and specifications of the project when it was shown to you in 2008. In line with this, we have reminded you that as stated in our Contract to Sell, the Notice of Availability of the Unit for Turnover shall be deemed conclusive evidence of satisfactory completion the aforementioned unit."This is the most outrageous part. It is like saying, we have done our part and satisfied you as soon as we send you a Notice of Availability, whichever condition the unit is in. Their agent is writing that the unit is not ready on the day I was requested but they insist that the unit was complete just because they sent me a notice!!!This is so surreal and filled with bad faith that it could almost be funny, except that I have already lost lots of time and money in this matter by coming more in the Philippines and having no income from that property that was supposed to be delivered 2 years ago. It also caused me lots of frustration because it's always been the same pattern when I meet any of the staff at their headquarters. They listen to me, tell me they understand and will do their best, but then they come up, after some time, with the same insulting answers.Now at least I would like my experience to help other potential targets of Robinsons Land Corporation. They are excellent in pre-sales, reach their peak in sales. Then they seem to be ok when no matter arise but will do anything to deny their responsibility if any trouble (interestingly I have found the same pattern with Cebu Pacific, which happens to be a sister company). I think they know we are foreigners and that would not be convenient for us to sue them, so they use this to their advantage. There is still one thing we can do before we sue: we can inform all our networks about their practice. I have met other owners not happy with their practice. They obviously do not care about our complaints. But they certainly care about their market share and annual results. So let's spread the word and affect those.

Very unusual for a first post on a forum but I allowed it anyway for the time being and it is my hope that you will at least introduce yourself in the introduction section so members can have a better idea about you and why you purchased a unit sight unseen. As for me, I always say let the buyer beware and in hand I trust, so I would never buy anything that I cannot physically see completed prior to my purchasing it because I have read horror stories such as yours many times in the past and I have even read about things such as this that happen in first world countries and the main problem is that many of us from those first world countries rely on the fact that we have recourse in our home countries, while none is usually available to us in the Philippines and even if we were to take a large corporation to court, the courts would most likely find in their favor even if we were 100% correct in our complaints. It is foreigner against local and local will almost always win unless the foreigner happens to have the correct connections and even then the cost to cure would hardly make it worth while.So again as I always say, this is the Philippines and how things are most often done here so we all either have to get used to it or not put ourselves in a position to be screwed and tattooed. I guess in the end you will do alright because the value of your unit should go up once the project is completed, so even though it has caused you a lot of aggravation, my guess is that the price has already gone up since you purchased it, so hang in there and just accept that they got you and not much else you can do about it except what you have just done IMO.

I was a tenant in Robinsons Star Mills in San Fernando Pampanga. After expiration of our lease contract they never refunded the full amount of our security deposit. No reason or explanation was givein upon our multiple inquires. We simply got the "run Around" and even went to Manila corp. office only to be told to ask again in san fernando. They in turn said they don't know and to take it up in Manila. After enough of this we gave up. The Amount they stole from us is 22 percent of the security deposit. BTW we owed nothing on the electric and no damage was done to premise. We were a booth.

[Call me bubba]

I was a tenant in Robinsons Star Mills in San Fernando Pampanga. After expiration of our lease contract they never refunded the full amount of our security deposit. No reason or explanation was givein upon our multiple inquires. We simply got the "run Around" and even went to Manila corp. office only to be told to ask again in san fernando. They in turn said they don't know and to take it up in Manila. After enough of this we gave up. The Amount they stole from us is 22 percent of the security deposit. BTW we owed nothing on the electric and no damage was done to premise. We were a booth.

Have you tried sending certified letters to ALL those in charge? maybe just maybe it will work.(small chance as RP business really dont care) they didnt explain at all why NOT A FULL refund? i am certain under the RP contract law they are supposed to give reason. but logic & reason seems not to apply here,sorry that you didnt get your deposit back. Do you have any type of civil,contract.law books? this could be most helpful when you do your next transactionmegamall 5th floor opposite side from SM, their is a "legal" law bookstore.(I am certain other stores are in the MM area.) buy a book or 2 on what suits your "business" interest. :photo-109: Edited June 7, 2011 by Kuya Lee
take out additional quotes

[Art2ro]

Just a reference if it may help here, I just snipped a few comments of interest. Since this RA 9161 was dated Dec 22, 2001, I don't know if there are other reversions or memorandums changing or updating this Republic Act! http://www.chanroble...cactno9161.htmlCongress of the PhilippinesTwelfth CongressREPUBLIC ACT NO. 9161December 22, 2001AN ACT ESTABLISHING REFORMS IN THE REGULATION OF RENTALS OF CERTAIN RESIDENTIAL UNITS, PROVIDING THE MECHANISMS THEREFOR AND FOR OTHER PURPOSESSec. 5. Rental and Deposit. Rental shall be paid in advance within the first five (5) days of every current month or the beginning of the lease agreement unless the contract of lease provides for a later date of payment. The lessor cannot demand more than one (1) month advance rental and two (2) month's deposit.Sec. 7. Grounds for Judicial Ejectment. Ejectment shall be allowed on be the following grounds;The lessor, upon authority of the court in case of consignation or upon joint affidavit by him and the lessee to be submitted to the city or municipal treasure and to the bank where deposit was made, shall be allowed to withdraw the deposits;© Legitimate need of the owner/lessor to repossess his or her property for his or her own use or for the use of any immediate member of his or her family as a residential unit: Provided, however. That the lease for a definite period has expired: Provided, further, That the lessor has given the lessee formal notice three (3) months in advance of the lessor's intention to repossess the property and: Provided finally; That the owner/lessor is prohibited from leasing the residential unit or allowing its use by a third party for a period of at least one year from the time of repossession.Sec. 12. Penalties. - a fine of not less than Five thousand pesos (P5,000) nor more than Fifteen thousand pesos (15,000.00) or imprisonment of not less than one (1) month and (1) day to not more than six (6) month or both shall be imposed on any person,natural or juridical, found guilty of violating any provision of this Act.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Art2ro

[vance]

Just a reference if it may help here, I just snipped a few comments of interest. Since this RA 9161 was dated Dec 22, 2001, I don't know if there are other reversions or memorandums changing or updating this Republic Act! http://www.chanroble...cactno9161.htmlCongress of the PhilippinesTwelfth CongressREPUBLIC ACT NO. 9161December 22, 2001AN ACT ESTABLISHING REFORMS IN THE REGULATION OF RENTALS OF CERTAIN RESIDENTIAL UNITS, PROVIDING THE MECHANISMS THEREFOR AND FOR OTHER PURPOSESSec. 5. Rental and Deposit. Rental shall be paid in advance within the first five (5) days of every current month or the beginning of the lease agreement unless the contract of lease provides for a later date of payment. The lessor cannot demand more than one (1) month advance rental and two (2) month's deposit.Sec. 7. Grounds for Judicial Ejectment. Ejectment shall be allowed on be the following grounds;The lessor, upon authority of the court in case of consignation or upon joint affidavit by him and the lessee to be submitted to the city or municipal treasure and to the bank where deposit was made, shall be allowed to withdraw the deposits;© Legitimate need of the owner/lessor to repossess his or her property for his or her own use or for the use of any immediate member of his or her family as a residential unit: Provided, however. That the lease for a definite period has expired: Provided, further, That the lessor has given the lessee formal notice three (3) months in advance of the lessor's intention to repossess the property and: Provided finally; That the owner/lessor is prohibited from leasing the residential unit or allowing its use by a third party for a period of at least one year from the time of repossession.Sec. 12. Penalties. - a fine of not less than Five thousand pesos (P5,000) nor more than Fifteen thousand pesos (15,000.00) or imprisonment of not less than one (1) month and (1) day to not more than six (6) month or both shall be imposed on any person,natural or juridical, found guilty of violating any provision of this Act.

Good to know but ours was a commercial lease not residential. ThanksVance Edited June 8, 2011 by Kuya Lee
post placement moved

[Art2ro]

Well Vance, from the looks of this other article concerning commercial release deposits, the law looks bleak for the foreigner to get one's deposit back, something to do about nine tenths of the law, Philippines style! It's still possible to go to court, but it could take awhile and you need a somewhat good honest attorney with influence and some grease money! http://carpolaw.com/articles/nine-tenths-of-the-law (Snipped this comment from the bottom of the page)The intent of the law versus Philippine laws on leases is clear and does not allow itself to be abused by well, lawyers. Apart from a more responsive legal framework landlords and lessees could resort to using escrow agreements, insurance contracts, and other means to cover their risks. Unfair lease contracts are not just an annoyance when you think of the capital requirements involved. They substantially affect the way businesses is done in the Philippines. As the law and practice now stand for the real estate leasing market it is as if you are just asking for trouble.

[Call me bubba]

has any one else had any issues w/Robinson or another housing developer?

share the stories so others can know what happen& how is was resolved.