Breaking News - Tour Bus Held Hostage

[UZI]

Remember, this guy was a decorated officer. Maybe, just maybe he had a booby trap set up. Ya know, shoot me and BOOM. What would you all be saying then? Cops shoot sniper & bomb explodes killing all on board...dumb ass cops should have tried to negotiate and maybe some would have survived...oh wait that's what DID happen. NINE got out before the brother incident.Also, a sniper would have probably taken out the driver, who was just behind, with his high powered rifle. I guess that would be collateral damage huh.

Yeah, and he could of had AIDS, or a bad cold, and bit everybody on the bus as well...hahaha, you are joking yes? With the booby trap theory? If you even remotely felt that he was even capable of this....blowing up everybody with a secret plan of getting shot and then going boom, why not just get on the bus with a bomb strapped under your tight uniform and announce you are willing to blow all up....unless he ummm, gets his JOB back? Would this booby trap be connected to a life support system, maybe a wire attached to his heart rate, or pulse? Would the bullet have to hit a certain spot? Maybe the connective trap was attached to his eye...if it shut for longer then 2 minutes, boom? Or...if he fell down forward, a button would go push down and all would blow up? :lol:

Hey shipmate,My oh my, aren't we getting a little tongue in cheek today? Your counter argumentis right on -- your sarcasm is a perfect head shot bulls eye.Respectfully -- Jake

Ahh........sarcasm & counter arguments ARE allowed on this forum it seems then. :thumbsup:Love the constant 'take him out with a head shot' ....now WHO would be doing that huh, tell me WHO...??? I mean, we all saw the highly trained SWAT in action around the bus with their impressive armaments & use of tactics.Of course things are so much better in YOUR country. Oh wait I gave a couple of examples earlier where the hostages were killed, one by the highly trained US Police sniper. Hmm...& what about WACO huh...33 Brits dead amongst all the others. This quote is from Police Sniper Training By John Plaster, Major Director of Instruction Minnesota National Guard Counter Sniper School St. Paul, Minnesota (I know he isn't an expert like wot you guys is):

One of the most pressured situations in law enforcement occurs when a police sniper is called upon to neutralize a suspect. In no other police encounter is so critical a responsibility reduced to the perfect execution of one shot. There is no room for error. For example, in a recent hostage incident, a police marksman’s fire hit the suspect three times. The shot was accurate, but not precise; deadly, but not instantaneously so. The badly wounded suspect survived long enough to kill a female hostage before dying himself.LINK

....or a bus load of hostages But of course that would never be considered now would it, nah...Yippee kayeh Common guys, even the bus driver said, that all was calm on the bus & no one felt threatened until the incident with the brother. That was where things went wrong and spiraled out off control from then into mayhem.Oh & Inspector, he couldn't possibly have an armed grenade in his hand for example now, could he? Being he did ave all the other weapons & being a trained officer an all.Respectfully.......:thumbs-up-smile:Uzi.

[stef]

form the bbcUnconfirmed reports say at least one of the dead was a dual Chinese-Canadian citizen.

[Inspector]

Yes, Uzi, this is a sarcasm and counter arguments forum, as is in the other forum you are posting .... and also getting countered quite well, with sarcasm. The Uzi is right all the time forums have not quite been invented yet, because well, you can't be wrong, and you are so wrong here it is amusing.Agree with the entire world, common sense...and watch an episode of criminal minds....and then we can make the Uzi is right forums. Actually, it seems you and the PNP, and Philippine prez o dent are the only ones trying to suggest they were doing a great job there...well, until that damn brother showed up on request by the PNP.Uzi....a head shot will splatter his brains and head into fragments. If he was able to spray the bus after a head shot, he could of been a zombie. Now, if he was a zombie, I can fully understand your opinion and the problems can be magnified. Especially the fast moving zombies...but wait...even zombies succumb to the head shot. So, you are wrong again.Here is the weapon he was using.

Notice that with this weapon, the AK47, at 600 rounds per minute, you will usually need TWO hands to operate...well, unless you are Rambo...or Chuck Norris, who can operate such a device with his brain waves.

A blind man once stepped on Chuck Norris' shoe. Chuck replied, "Don't you know who I am? I'm Chuck Norris!" The mere mention of his name cured this mans blindness. Sadly the first, last, and only thing this man ever saw, was a fatal roundhouse delivered by Chuck Norris

Chuck Norris does not need to use spell check. If he happens to misspell a word, Oxford changes its actual spelling.

Okay, now let's suggest he was using two hands, and was not Chuck Norris....how is he going to pop that hand grenade? Oh, that's right...in the photos when he emerged he has nothing in his hand. Maybe it was an ass grenade jammed in his crack hole, and one quiet fart would truly be considered, silent, but deadly. Now, you suggest how would a sniper kill him...well, they eventually did. According to the reports. You suggest these special force cop are all baboons...as you are quoted... "I mean, we all saw the highly trained SWAT in action around the bus with their impressive armaments & use of tactics." ... in what I would call, sarcasm. So not only are you using sarcasm yourself, you are complaining about it in this very thread when it is also used eventually, towards you. That would be your FIRST sign of hypocrisy, the second being you suggesting these special forces looking like fools, thus who can actually land a clean head shot?...while at the end suggesting this hostage taker is some sort of ramboesque figure, able to survive three head shots, use an AK47 with mind control, booby trap himself to his pulse, and blow grenades out of his arse. Wow, we sure went from one end of the testosterone spectrum in short time. Hell, makes me wonder why they fired such a stud...no? Maybe, they could of used the hostage taker, to take himself out...you know, being he was so competent...or three armed. Hell, he could of gotten his job back then, as the world marveled at how well he handled his own hostage taking. "Marge...look at this super cop on FoxNews, he took over a bus load of Chinese with a AK47 rifle...yeah, the best combat rifle ever made, and is now breaking his own arm in a.... arm bar...oh my God, he's choking himself out now...what a splendid display of hostage taking, and taking a hostage out!"Listen, Uzi, read my lips...or key strokes....there is only one way to deal with this situation. It is called clear shot, take it. They had it. Your argument that all the passengers were "fine" because a bus driver said so is strange, because he would actually would have to of talked to them one by one...you calm? I know that when a guy is making demands with a AK47 with my life as the leverage, calm would NOT be what I would feel, and I am POSITIVE the passengers were feeling a little bit of stress. That is a silly statement...they were calm. They might not of been shot at that point, but calm? Come on...make a little sense and we can debate this with intelligence.Let's get to the latest facts.Manila Police District head Chief Superintendent Rodolfo Magtibay, who ordered the ill-fated police assault on hostage-taker Rolando Mendoza, was relieved from his post Wednesday.The national police force had already admitted in a statement to key mistakes in handling the 12-hour hostage drama.These included poor negotiations with hijacker Rolando Mendoza, inadequate equipment for the SWAT team, allowing the media to roam around the hostage site and bad crowd control.The tragedy unfolded live on television, allowing people around the world to watch as the commandos failed to get into the bus for more than an hour after smashing its windows with sledgehammers (non returnable).In another apparent mistake, police failed to take the opportunity to shoot Mendoza at one point when he opened the door of the bus and peered out (because of a possible grenade in his arse).But Cruz said it remained too early to say whether the victims had been shot by Mendoza or the police. (so maybe you are correct, a sniper was too much to ask from these poorly trained police force swat teams, yet they were dead on with the hostages)3 PNP SWAT team leaders were fired for incompetenceHow about the photographs of the smiling police officers and girls taken at the bus? I guess they, like you, felt they handled it correctly, until that damn brother was brought in. Here you go Uzi...from YOUR come from country.10 things they did wrong3. Lost opportunity to disarm the gunman Mendoza's gun was not always raised There were numerous opportunities to restrain the gunman, Mr Shoebridge believes. "The negotiators were so close to him, and he had his weapon hanging down by his side. He could have been disabled without having to kill him." 4. Lost opportunity to shoot the gunman The video of the drama also shows there were occasions when the gunman was standing alone, during the course of the day, and could have been shot by a sharpshooter. "You are dealing with an unpredictable and irrational individual. The rule should be that if in the course of negotiations an opportunity arises to end the situation decisively, it should be taken," Mr Shoebridge says. Either this possibility did not occur to the officers in charge, he adds, or they considered it and decided to carry on talking.Notice the grenade in his hand? "There were many times when they could have easily taken him out (before) "

[Jake]

Remember, this guy was a decorated officer. Maybe, just maybe he had a booby trap set up. Ya know, shoot me and BOOM. What would you all be saying then? Cops shoot sniper & bomb explodes killing all on board...dumb ass cops should have tried to negotiate and maybe some would have survived...oh wait that's what DID happen. NINE got out before the brother incident.Also, a sniper would have probably taken out the driver, who was just behind, with his high powered rifle. I guess that would be collateral damage huh.

Debating 101This of course applies to both verbal and writing skills. For example: take the recent hostage event in Manila that brought many passionate opinions (pro and con) among the members. It also reveals to me the debating skills of the writer. Or lack of it…..A case in point is a certain member imposing an imaginary “what ifs” in order to validate or strengthen his opinion against the others. Nice try -- it’s the skill of an amateur debater. Anybody could inject their own “what ifs” or theoretical scenarios to prove his opinion is more valid than others but the argument quickly becomes child’s play, don’t you think? To prove your point by imaginary “what ifs” is totally irrelevant and often times condescending. Enough said -- JakeDisclaimer -- the above comment does not necessarily reflect the opinions of other PEF staff members and therefore shall not be held responsible for my actions

[UZI]

Yes, Uzi, this is a sarcasm and counter arguments forum, as is in the other forum you are posting .... and also getting countered quite well, with sarcasm. The Uzi is right all the time forums have not quite been invented yet, because well, you can't be wrong, and you are so wrong here it is amusing.Agree with the entire world, common sense...and watch an episode of criminal minds....and then we can make the Uzi is right forums. Actually, it seems you and the PNP, and Philippine prez o dent are the only ones trying to suggest they were doing a great job there...well, until that damn brother showed up on request by the PNP.Uzi....a head shot will splatter his brains and head into fragments. If he was able to spray the bus after a head shot, he could of been a zombie. Now, if he was a zombie, I can fully understand your opinion and the problems can be magnified. Especially the fast moving zombies...but wait...even zombies succumb to the head shot. So, you are wrong again.Here is the weapon he was using.

Notice that with this weapon, the AK47, at 600 rounds per minute, you will usually need TWO hands to operate...well, unless you are Rambo...or Chuck Norris, who can operate such a device with his brain waves.

A blind man once stepped on Chuck Norris' shoe. Chuck replied, "Don't you know who I am? I'm Chuck Norris!" The mere mention of his name cured this mans blindness. Sadly the first, last, and only thing this man ever saw, was a fatal roundhouse delivered by Chuck Norris

Chuck Norris does not need to use spell check. If he happens to misspell a word, Oxford changes its actual spelling.

Okay, now let's suggest he was using two hands, and was not Chuck Norris....how is he going to pop that hand grenade? Oh, that's right...in the photos when he emerged he has nothing in his hand. Maybe it was an ass grenade jammed in his crack hole, and one quiet fart would truly be considered, silent, but deadly. Now, you suggest how would a sniper kill him...well, they eventually did. According to the reports. You suggest these special force cop are all baboons...as you are quoted... "I mean, we all saw the highly trained SWAT in action around the bus with their impressive armaments & use of tactics." ... in what I would call, sarcasm. So not only are you using sarcasm yourself, you are complaining about it in this very thread when it is also used eventually, towards you. That would be your FIRST sign of hypocrisy, the second being you suggesting these special forces looking like fools, thus who can actually land a clean head shot?...while at the end suggesting this hostage taker is some sort of ramboesque figure, able to survive three head shots, use an AK47 with mind control, booby trap himself to his pulse, and blow grenades out of his arse. Wow, we sure went from one end of the testosterone spectrum in short time. Hell, makes me wonder why they fired such a stud...no? Maybe, they could of used the hostage taker, to take himself out...you know, being he was so competent...or three armed. Hell, he could of gotten his job back then, as the world marveled at how well he handled his own hostage taking. "Marge...look at this super cop on FoxNews, he took over a bus load of Chinese with a AK47 rifle...yeah, the best combat rifle ever made, and is now breaking his own arm in a.... arm bar...oh my God, he's choking himself out now...what a splendid display of hostage taking, and taking a hostage out!"Listen, Uzi, read my lips...or key strokes....there is only one way to deal with this situation. It is called clear shot, take it. They had it. Your argument that all the passengers were "fine" because a bus driver said so is strange, because he would actually would have to of talked to them one by one...you calm? I know that when a guy is making demands with a AK47 with my life as the leverage, calm would NOT be what I would feel, and I am POSITIVE the passengers were feeling a little bit of stress. That is a silly statement...they were calm. They might not of been shot at that point, but calm? Come on...make a little sense and we can debate this with intelligence.Let's get to the latest facts.Manila Police District head Chief Superintendent Rodolfo Magtibay, who ordered the ill-fated police assault on hostage-taker Rolando Mendoza, was relieved from his post Wednesday.The national police force had already admitted in a statement to key mistakes in handling the 12-hour hostage drama.These included poor negotiations with hijacker Rolando Mendoza, inadequate equipment for the SWAT team, allowing the media to roam around the hostage site and bad crowd control.The tragedy unfolded live on television, allowing people around the world to watch as the commandos failed to get into the bus for more than an hour after smashing its windows with sledgehammers (non returnable).In another apparent mistake, police failed to take the opportunity to shoot Mendoza at one point when he opened the door of the bus and peered out (because of a possible grenade in his arse).But Cruz said it remained too early to say whether the victims had been shot by Mendoza or the police. (so maybe you are correct, a sniper was too much to ask from these poorly trained police force swat teams, yet they were dead on with the hostages)3 PNP SWAT team leaders were fired for incompetenceHow about the photographs of the smiling police officers and girls taken at the bus? I guess they, like you, felt they handled it correctly, until that damn brother was brought in. Here you go Uzi...from YOUR come from country.10 things they did wrong3. Lost opportunity to disarm the gunman Mendoza's gun was not always raised There were numerous opportunities to restrain the gunman, Mr Shoebridge believes. "The negotiators were so close to him, and he had his weapon hanging down by his side. He could have been disabled without having to kill him." 4. Lost opportunity to shoot the gunman The video of the drama also shows there were occasions when the gunman was standing alone, during the course of the day, and could have been shot by a sharpshooter. "You are dealing with an unpredictable and irrational individual. The rule should be that if in the course of negotiations an opportunity arises to end the situation decisively, it should be taken," Mr Shoebridge says. Either this possibility did not occur to the officers in charge, he adds, or they considered it and decided to carry on talking.Notice the grenade in his hand? "There were many times when they could have easily taken him out (before) "

1. I only reply when I believe I am right. Others do so for other reasons.2. I wasn't complaining about your sarcasm & counter argument. On the contrary, I was happy that someone else did & it wasn't complained about as is usual with mine.3. It seems that you are the one who cannot accept that there is another side to be discussed. As I gave as an example from an EXPERT, the sniper shot sometimes misses with the hostages being killed. You on the other hand believe the hollywood version where the shot always is between the eyes & brain splat. Even though you contradict yourself later by saying " (so maybe you are correct, a sniper was too much to ask from these poorly trained police force swat teams, yet they were dead on with the hostages)"4. As stated many times yesterday on the news here & abroad, it is against the law to shoot the hostage taker unless the hostages are in immediate danger.5. I have said all along that I AGREE it was a shambles at the end. I disagree that they should have attempted to disarm a trained (whatever that means) decorated police officer given all was relaxed & no apparent immediate threat, as even the hostages have said.6. You are fully entitled to your views & I thought I was too.This difference of views has run its course as far as I am concerned. Enjoyable though the debate has been, time to stop when attacking the person becomes acceptable.:lol: & have a nice day.Uzi.

[Mr Lee]

OK guys enough, unless someone comes up with some more information on this actual incidence. We are all entitled to out opinions and their will always be different POV and this forum feels everyone is allowed to state their views. I can tell you all that if a head shot is done properly and a rifle bullet hits anywhere from approximately the top of the nose up, there will no longer be any motor movement in the person hit, so therefore there will not be any pulling of any triggers or killing of anyone once that perpetrator is hit in the head. Head shots of course are aimed center of the head thus also severing the brain stem which means it is all over period. Besides that there is the shock of the bullet hitting which basically means excessive hydraulic shock. Yes there is always a chance a hostage might be hit but when you are dealing with many hostages, as in this case and the perpetrator presents a clear target, as he did by standing in the doorway, IMO a shot should have been taken because when taking into consideration that no one in their right mind, and especially a trained police officer or superior officer as was this case, would take a bus load of hostages and expect it to get his job back, if he was in his right mind, so once we get the fact out that this person was either insane or in a state of despair, then the only thing left IMO is to terminate the threat and basically there would always be two snipers taking the shot so if one missed then the other would not.