Losing Face

[Jake]

Losing Face (embarrassment, shame, etc) The term has come up several times now. I often wonder where it all started and how different cultures perceive it as another phrase or practice. I did some research and basically it derives from the Chinese culture and how it expanded throughout the region.I guess I have a unique position of being brought up early in my life in the Philippines and then continued my learning curve in southern California. Being exposed to both cultures (from my parents, friends and neighbors), I decided early that the American way of life is for the most part, the right way to deal with people. Well, perhaps I should further qualify that -- maybe not the right way but the most efficient way to correct the situation as soon as possible.One of the most important things that my father has taught me: good honest hard work really pays off in the long run. Itwas further amplified by the work ethics I have learned in the states. And then becoming more refined with discipline, honor and dedication in the US military. I would rather bite the bullet (lose face), apologize and accept accountability for my action at all times. Face the music, shake hands and then have a few beers after work. Be affirmative but yet be more sensitive to others.On the other hand, I view this practice of losing face in the Philippines much more frustrating. I think, it's more importantof saving face rather than apologize. Rather than putting everything on the table, one tends to tsimis (gossip), seek revengeor actually have someone salvaged because he sang "My Way", not your way. Or showing bruises on her knees by crawlingdown the center of church and claiming her concern for the poor and yet having 3,000 pairs of shoes and massive ill-gotten wealth.It would seem that losing Face in the Philippines has been elevated to the Culture of Impunity for the rich and infamous. Respectfully -- Jake

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jake
korrect my Englesh

[ekimswish]

We only have 8 fattener pigs we're raising left, which we'll sell in April, and then take a break from raising pigs, so my wife informed the farm manager she would be let go at the end of March. That means moving with her family off the farm as well. Rather than being grateful that we buit them a native house on the farm (prior they had been separated, husband in the mountains and wife at the parents house), or that we paid her double what we were expected based on local wages (6k rather than 3k/month), or that I employed her brothers for construction, gave my used pair of Addidas to one brother for basketball, and bought the other brother an entirely new pair (first shoes he's ever had in his life actually), or that we trusted her advice and nearly ran the farm and our own finances into the ground because my wife took her word on things (I always knew it was a mistake, but the wife had to learn the hard way).........Dispite all of that, AND INSPITE OF us finding out that she has been skimming off the top of farming expenses while we were abroad (as I knew would happen)....Her mother and her still spread a rumor around town that I stopped supporting my wife financially from abroad, and that my wife hadn't paid the nannies for two months. Now people are asking our nannies if they're going to quit because of what my wife is doing, and they're free to assume that she cheated on me since I'm not sending money anymore (even though I sent money last week). So my wife is now going to file a case against them for slander or whatever it's called, and they'll all have to meet at the town hall and have it out in front of the judge. My wife said it's the second time that mother has been charged with "spreading gossip". lol......Oh yeah, after I left for Taiwan, the farm manager tried to lie about not getting paid to my wife, but I corrected the situation by allowing her to save face, but not giving in. I was back on a visit and told her that it's time we use payment receipts, and with all of the money changing hands due to the pigs, it's easy to get confused.... but I know that I paid her, so I couldn't pay her again, but I would give her an advance on her Feb salary (by one day). Oh yeah.... and we lent them 7k to lease land in the mountain for a garden plot. All that and they still have the nerve to spread lies, and then come and bag for rice, which my wife gave them. Saving face...... it could've been so much simpler. Just say the truth, that Mike isn't making as much money as in Korea, so they had to scale back the farm and focus on the 3 pregnant sows for now instead of the larger growing operation. Maybe when they have money and a better plan for how things actually work, they might start up again. But no..... that would make too much sense.

[ekimswish]

Even as I know in Korea and Taiwan, saving face usually means one side has to take the hit. It means I will volunteer the hit so you can look good, but in order for you to justify it, you have to believe its true, and treat me exactly as if I'm wrong, rather than subtely showing your gratitude for the gracious action. So, one person, probably the elder or richer, saves face, while the poorer or younger gives face..... HIS OWN FACE.

[Jake]

Hey Ekimswish,If I may, on behave of my fellow members, I would like to express both sympathy as well as empathy to the issues you mentioned above. This forum is a good sounding board to bitch and moan because most of us have been down that road with you, my friend. But just to be fair and balance, please allow me to state my personal feelings about living in the States.In spite of misgivings in my observation of the Philippines, one could argue why am I still coming back to my native land. My reasoning is basically is the lesser of the two evils. To finally obtain financial freedom (not rich by any means) equals freedom from everyday stress. Well, most of the time anyway. At this stage of my life and family, what is really important? My health or continue to work my bones to the ground until I croak over. As mentioned previously, I'm beginning to find that the American dream is not necessarily living in the States anymore. USA has its share of problems too. They are more sophisticated and much more damaging to the common folks. The letters C E O is the new 3 letter word, as the devil worshiper of the almighty buck. If they are found guilty and fired, they will cry all the way to their luxury yachts with severance package worth in the millions. While us low lifes receive the pink slip due to mergers, outsourcing and company bankruptcy.I will return to PI with an attitude of "don't worry, be happy". Go with the flow and speak out (softly) whenever necessary. Just give me relatively stress free lifestyle and a pitcher of MoJo, while watching the tropical sunset as well as the sunrise.Respectfully -- Jake

Edited March 22, 2012 by Jake

[Old55]

Even as I know in Korea and Taiwan, saving face usually means one side has to take the hit. It means I will volunteer the hit so you can look good, but in order for you to justify it, you have to believe its true, and treat me exactly as if I'm wrong, rather than subtely showing your gratitude for the gracious action. So, one person, probably the elder or richer, saves face, while the poorer or younger gives face..... HIS OWN FACE.

The example Ekimswish plays out is kinda tricky to pull off correctly but important to understand. For instance if a Foreigner were to chose to "be the one" while with close friends the gratitude from the group would be very quietly acknowledged without words however it could be deeply appreciated and could bring you more closely into that group of friends. Keeping in mind family and close non-family friends are much more important than in the west. Being part of that group is extremely important to most Asians few Foreigners are true group members but accepted sometimes because of what we are.Ekimiswish is much better at explaining these kinda things than I am I hope he could expound on this some more. Chinese and Filipino culture both share this but in slightly different ways. It is very interesting.

[Jake]

Even as I know in Korea and Taiwan, saving face usually means one side has to take the hit. It means I will volunteer the hit so you can look good, but in order for you to justify it, you have to believe its true, and treat me exactly as if I'm wrong, rather than subtely showing your gratitude for the gracious action. So, one person, probably the elder or richer, saves face, while the poorer or younger gives face..... HIS OWN FACE.

The example Ekimswish plays out is kinda tricky to pull off correctly but important to understand. For instance if a Foreigner were to chose to "be the one" while with close friends the gratitude from the group would be very quietly acknowledged without words however it could be deeply appreciated and could bring you more closely into that group of friends. Keeping in mind family and close non-family friends are much more important than in the west. Being part of that group is extremely important to most Asians few Foreigners are true group members but accepted sometimes because of what we are.Ekimiswish is much better at explaining these kinda things than I am I hope he could expound on this some more. Chinese and Filipino culture both share this but in slightly different ways. It is very interesting.

http://www.carouselp....com/pinas.htmlThe above article is written by Arlene Wright entitled "Philippine Cultural Values". She describes many facets of the Filipino mindset and in my opinion, worth a few minutes of your time to read and understand some nonwestern behaviors. For example (regarding saving face), the hidden meaning of a Filipino saying YES. Anotherterm "Utang na loob" may directly involve you but you will never know it or fully appreciate it.Thank you Old55 and Ekimswish for your comments......respectfully -- Jake

[roy2cebu]

Hi Jake, read the link but to me, as in many walks of life wherever, it's an 'idealistic' view. Promoting the good which has a lot of contradiction.For example , how can all be classed as friendly, etc when to some, murder is second nature without remorse.Seems like tourism hype to me. Maybe I'm getting a bit cynical now after seeing much behaviour which is the total opposite of that portrayed.

[Mr Lee]

Hi Jake, read the link but to me, as in many walks of life wherever, it's an 'idealistic' view. Promoting the good which has a lot of contradiction.For example , how can all be classed as friendly, etc when to some, murder is second nature without remorse.Seems like tourism hype to me. Maybe I'm getting a bit cynical now after seeing much behaviour which is the total opposite of that portrayed.

Filipinos are extremely tolerant people and their hospitality is almost limitless. A little understanding and insight will open doors and arms. To really know the Filipino, and to really feel at ease in the Philippines, visitors need to probe past the Western veneer, and then an entirely different world will reveal itself.

I think the above quote in there is very true Roy, the more comfortable I feel amongst the locals, the less the face issue and other issues comes into play. I guess it is more about them feeling comfortable with me, but also me feeling comfortable with them, so I find that the more relaxed I am, the more we all seem to get along. I also find a smile and giving respect to the locals goes a long way to relax them when dealing with me. There are many ways of dealing with issues, so I find it is always best to take the low road, so a person does not have to lose face when dealing with me. I guess one way I have found is, instead of being confrontational and telling a workman "Didn't I tell you not to do it that way" instead I will say, I thought I already discussed this with you, but I am getting forgetful in my old age, so could you please do it this way. I therefore get what I want and the worker does not lose face, and if he continues to do the item wrong, then I get his boss and explain it to them, but at no time tell the boss that I have already told the guy a few times how I wanted it done. I have incorporated that type of thinking into most of what I do while here, yet it does at times upset me, yet the more I am here, the less problems I seem to run into getting things done or dealing with locals who know me.

[roy2cebu]

Fair enough, I have some friends here and get on ok. My point is that the 'all filipinos are friendly amd welcoming' is an over used generalisation.Two examples from many experiences of mine here....buying local kids in the evening little packs of nuts, etc and then on leaving, pecking one of them on the cheek then being told by an 'elder' I could be reported for child abuse.......really friendly after having a good heart and entertaining the kids.Then, was due p4500 advance back on moving appartment. After electric and water taken out should be p3500 but got p1000 because of damage to the appartment. A broken 6" x 4 " glass in cupbord door (which was already broke), a bit of paint loss on the wall after scratching it whilst moving a table and a few scratches on the tiled floor in the bedroom.Damage no where near p2500. Did I kick up a fuss? No...bit my tongue and buggered off. Angry, yes, but what's the point of carrying on?So, it just irks me to hear what a wonderful bunch of people they are....promoting them as some special breed...when there's as much low life here as in any other country that also has it's quota of wonderful, friendly folk.

[Mr Lee]

Fair enough, I have some friends here and get on ok. My point is that the 'all filipinos are friendly amd welcoming' is an over used generalisation.Two examples from many experiences of mine here....buying local kids in the evening little packs of nuts, etc and then on leaving, pecking one of them on the cheek then being told by an 'elder' I could be reported for child abuse.......really friendly after having a good heart and entertaining the kids.Then, was due p4500 advance back on moving appartment. After electric and water taken out should be p3500 but got p1000 because of damage to the appartment. A broken 6" x 4 " glass in cupbord door (which was already broke), a bit of paint loss on the wall after scratching it whilst moving a table and a few scratches on the tiled floor in the bedroom.Damage no where near p2500. Did I kick up a fuss? No...bit my tongue and buggered off. Angry, yes, but what's the point of carrying on?So, it just irks me to hear what a wonderful bunch of people they are....promoting them as some special breed...when there's as much low life here as in any other country that also has it's quota of wonderful, friendly folk.

All of any country are surely not good, and landlords are often the ripoff artists because we are all seen as rich, so they already have our money and hate to part with it, and yours is not the first landlord ripoff I have heard of, but you got off cheap when compared to some who lost their whole deposits. Yup, the Philippines is often not fair to many of us round eyes, unless we set the rules, such as put all in a lease including a broken shelf or any damaged items, and then ride out the last month to make sure we owe them and not the other way around. Being in the know keeps us safer and I am learning all the time, so I get cheated less and less as time goes on, but you are correct and greed has overridden kindness in many issues here, yet I think we have to also take into account that many are just scratching out a living and see us as rich enough to not feel the pain, but they are wrong and they are hurting themselves by causing animosity amongst many of us whose money helps this country to survive.