Brit, Girlfriend Charged With Girl’S Murder

[4thDan]

I hate to seem obtuse...but a few questions arise that I am having a bit of trouble coming up with an answers to that is satisfactory.....The first couple were held for two weeks or so prior to being released and the second couple were under investigation for another two weeks or so prior to the search warrant being exercised, whether rightly or wrongly....here is where the questions begin.....Listed as taken in the search warrant are sheets and a blanket with "blood stains" on them. WHO let's sheets and blankets lie about for almost a month and doesn't have them laundered, with or without blood stains on them?The initial report said that the autopsy showed that the victim was not sexually attacked, I believe it said that specifically it stated that her hymen was intact. Question number two...what use are the "sex toys" then to investigators or as evidence? Question three...how long does it take for the police to think of getting DNA tests going on what evidence they may have?????Question four....according to the report of a taxi/trike driver...he told police initially that when they arrested the first couple that they had the wrong people because he had SEEN the faces of the people in the vehicle in question, but his statement was ignored...the question being...Now he has validity???????Though I sincerely hope that the authorities do in in fact find/arrest and fully prosecute the perps of this heinous crime....so far the police have been a flash back to Max Sennet's Keystone Cops....trying to make round pegs fit square hole (apologies to coke and pepsi ....yes round pegs ...i.e. bottles...do fit in to square holes...the carriers)..but in this case...either manufacturing a piece of "evidence" and then finding someone to make it stick to...is NOT anything close to proper, let alone respectable police work. (Sorry for the overly long sentence)....I don't know and I doubt if anyone else knows if the current accused are innocent or guilty. I just hope that this case can come to a successfully prosecuted conclusion. I feel sorry for the girls family being fed false hopes bye the very people they rely on for help.

[Mr Lee]

I hate to seem obtuse...but a few questions arise that I am having a bit of trouble coming up with an answers to that is satisfactory.....The first couple were held for two weeks or so prior to being released and the second couple were under investigation for another two weeks or so prior to the search warrant being exercised, whether rightly or wrongly...

.here is where the questions begin.....Listed as taken in the search warrant are sheets and a blanket with "blood stains" on them. WHO let's sheets and blankets lie about for almost a month and doesn't have them laundered, with or without blood stains on them?

It said in the initial news report that items were sent for DNA testing right after the search warrant and search, so I do not know if that was true or not. :cheersty: Also blood does not easily come out from sheets unless something like peroxide is put on them not long after the blood got on them, so someone not knowing about DNA might just wash the sheets and feel they were safe, and blood can also come from a large sex toy penetrating the anus if done in a rush. I have stayed at hotels in the Philippines where their was still blood stains on freshly cleaned sheets.

The initial report said that the autopsy showed that the victim was not sexually attacked, I believe it said that specifically it stated that her hymen was intact. Question number two...what use are the "sex toys" then to investigators or as evidence?

DNA can also be taken from saliva, blood or anal waste, so there does not have to be vaginal penetration to get DNA, yet sex toys can be used on the vagina without actual penetration and still have vaginal fluid on them.

Question three...how long does it take for the police to think of getting DNA tests going on what evidence they may have?????Question four....according to the report of a taxi/trike driver...he told police initially that when they arrested the first couple that they had the wrong people because he had SEEN the faces of the people in the vehicle in question, but his statement was ignored...the question being...Now he has validity???????

DNA testing will usually take a few days to a couple of weeks, but I do not believe they have a testing facility in the Philippines, so time would have to be added for shipping both ways and we all know how good shipping here seems to be. Then there will also have to be DMA separation from probable multiple users of the sex toys. As for the validity of the eye witness, those are always in question when the perpetrator is not known to them, and IMO only the DNA tests can confirm if the eye witness was correct this time. The first time it was the police who did the investigation, yet this time I believe the NBI was also involved and they are much more highly qualified and trained, supposedly the best of the best, yet it does seem like keystone cops doing the investigation from reading news stories, and that is because the public is never made fully aware of all that actually goes on behind the scenes.

[Inspector]

Dan, nice post...the way I see it is as follows.The Cebu police are bumbling this case away, but I hope they do because I simply do not see them guilty. It lacks any substance, and the latest I read was the gentleman in the UK was taken into custody because the Philippines finest issued a warrant for his arrest, and after this warrant was issued, they, the UK coppers, arrested him on a UK law...a law that states the trial will be in the UK, if there is any. This could of surprised the Philippines finest, as they could of been expecting the Brit to of been packed in a box and sent back to Cebu, and now they are denying they even issued this warrant, because it could have actual real type police investigations...those that require evidence being more then a 8 year old witness and a car that might look like the one involved.If they had any evidence such as DNA, it would of already been produced. The pinay who was in court did not act like a guilty woman, at ALL...even wanting to fight the finest outside. The Brit was dead on on getting out of there and letting the real police of the UK arrest him, with now the Philippines going to look like fools again, this time with the world, well the UK and there great investigating ability... watching.All anybody needs to do, IMHO...think with common sense here. Then add some profiling, and before you know it, you say to yourself, this would be awfully odd if these two did this crime. Hell, it would be odd for any couple to do this, and even a sexpat with pre pub attractions would not be with a 35 year old and have sex toys. The girl was a retired bar wh...excuse, bar girl. Of course she's going to have sex toys and both will be watching porn on the computer. Half of adult USA or west has these things. Child porn? Really? I have yet to see anything that suggests this guy is into child porn. Of course I can be wrong, won't be the first, but why would this working guy be making cash with kids...and then having to abduct them? Again, makes no sense...if he was running a kiddie porn site, don't you have a better way then "abduct" a child with your 35 year old partner, and then make her do nasty things? ...and then wack her because she said...no? This case simply reeks...and I simply have seen NOTHING that makes me feel these two are guilty...from the type of crime to the lack of evidence. A dildo and adult porn might be a crime in the Philippines, have no idea...but that does NOT make you a child killer, or a child pornographer. Now, if he had child porn on that computer...they, the finest of the Philippines, better have dates of upload and download. That is evidence. If these things are admitted without a date stamp on them, modifications ect...then they will simply throw them out as plants by the UK. That type of thing is why they have lawyers, and evidence that needs to be air tight. All IMHO...your opinions may vary.

[Mr Lee]

Dan, nice post...the way I see it is as follows.The Cebu police are bumbling this case away, but I hope they do because I simply do not see them guilty. It lacks any substance, and the latest I read was the gentleman in the UK was taken into custody because the Philippines finest issued a warrant for his arrest, and after this warrant was issued, they, the UK coppers, arrested him on a UK law...a law that states the trial will be in the UK, if there is any. This could of surprised the Philippines finest, as they could of been expecting the Brit to of been packed in a box and sent back to Cebu, and now they are denying they even issued this warrant, because it could have actual real type police investigations...those that require evidence being more then a 8 year old witness and a car that might look like the one involved.If they had any evidence such as DNA, it would of already been produced. The pinay who was in court did not act like a guilty woman, at ALL...even wanting to fight the finest outside. The Brit was dead on on getting out of there and letting the real police of the UK arrest him, with now the Philippines going to look like fools again, this time with the world, well the UK and there great investigating ability... watching.All anybody needs to do, IMHO...think with common sense here. Then add some profiling, and before you know it, you say to yourself, this would be awfully odd if these two did this crime. Hell, it would be odd for any couple to do this, and even a sexpat with pre pub attractions would not be with a 35 year old and have sex toys. The girl was a retired bar wh...excuse, bar girl. Of course she's going to have sex toys and both will be watching porn on the computer. Half of adult USA or west has these things. Child porn? Really? I have yet to see anything that suggests this guy is into child porn. Of course I can be wrong, won't be the first, but why would this working guy be making cash with kids...and then having to abduct them? Again, makes no sense...if he was running a kiddie porn site, don't you have a better way then "abduct" a child with your 35 year old partner, and then make her do nasty things? ...and then wack her because she said...no? This case simply reeks...and I simply have seen NOTHING that makes me feel these two are guilty...from the type of crime to the lack of evidence. A dildo and adult porn might be a crime in the Philippines, have no idea...but that does NOT make you a child killer, or a child pornographer. Now, if he had child porn on that computer...they, the finest of the Philippines, better have dates of upload and download. That is evidence. If these things are admitted without a date stamp on them, modifications ect...then they will simply throw them out as plants by the UK. That type of thing is why they have lawyers, and evidence that needs to be air tight. All IMHO...your opinions may vary.

In one story there was mention of a thumb drive with photos of kids and sex images, yet the news story did not specifically say sex images of children. I do not find it to be a stretch to think that the plates were modified before the abduction, that way witnesses would see the wrong number and then they would be harder to find since a trace of said plate would come up to the wrong vehicle. People have done that in the past and done it often. Why would a working guy make sex photos of kids, perverts come in all sizes and shapes and most have regular jobs, and some even have high up jobs. So IF they are guilty, then my guess is that they had done it before and thought money would work for the girl to let them take photos, and then something went terribly wrong when she said no, or starting to scream for help. Are they guilty, IMHO only DNA would convince me, and then it would have to not be planted DNA, which none of us will ever be sure of.

[Dave Hounddriver]

The thing that bothers me most about it is: In the west the first people they look at are family members to be sure they are not involved. Did they do that here? It seems to me that they are purposely turning a blind eye to any other suspects, like the old west movies where the real killer is a part of the posse.

[MikeB]

The thing that bothers me most about it is: In the west the first people they look at are family members to be sure they are not involved. Did they do that here? It seems to me that they are purposely turning a blind eye to any other suspects, like the old west movies where the real killer is a part of the posse.

That's a valid point and it seems like as soon as witlesses described a foreigner they were off on a wild goose chase. Thankfully, Berger and the woman escaped although they had to endure several weeks of deplorable conditions despite incontrovertible proof that they couldn't have done it. Some wild theories floating around, makes for good newspaper headlines and fodder for forums. It's a tragedy and I hope they catch the real killer but I don't have much hope based on what's happened so far.

[Mr Lee]

The thing that bothers me most about it is: In the west the first people they look at are family members to be sure they are not involved. Did they do that here? It seems to me that they are purposely turning a blind eye to any other suspects, like the old west movies where the real killer is a part of the posse.

I guess we would have to know how far away from where the body was dumped does the family live? Do they have a vehicle to transport a body? Why would they pick the child up from school and then kill her? Why not just kill her at home? I am sure the NBI has asked and answered these questions already and unlike in a first world country where all is possible, in a developing nation where most people do not even drive or have a car, it becomes more and more unlikely that family had anything to do with it if they do not have a vehicle.Now with all the pedo sex sites being discovered by law enforcement agencies, and with all the demand by pedos for photos of nude children, why is it that everyone seems to have such a problem believing that many of those sites are being run from the Philippines? And why is it that people do not think it is possible that this man and his former bargirl gf ran such a site? The one thing that makes the most money in this world is anything that is sex related and if it is taboo sex related, then it makes even more money. All one has to do is type in the word sex in a search engine and see how many hits they get. So is this guy guilty, I have no idea, and it is for the NBI to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt since they are treading a lot slower after the first big blunder made by the local police, but I would not be jumping to the conclusion that he is innocent so fast, just based on lack of info released to the news. Oh, and bargirls are great actresses, how many of them hook guys online and swear they are innocent angles, so the best defense is a good offense, and they also have the fact that so much time has passed, and that the police made the first major blunder on their side, and to give them confidence.

[Dave Hounddriver]

I am sure the NBI has asked and answered these questions already

I'm not.I know there are some scum foreigners living in or visiting the Philippines. I know there are some scum locals living here. I believe that Kuya Lee has gone native, ie jumped on the same bandwagon as the NBI when they have already proven their inability to conduct a fair and impartial investigation in this matter.To be sure that justice is done I can see the reasoning for following the theory of the 'one armed man' . . err I mean the foreigner who dun it, (reference to a long running but American tv show for you Aussies). But for the same reason I dislike the 'posse' mentality that I mentioned previously and that some foreigners seem to want to ride with.

[MikeB]

The thing that bothers me most about it is: In the west the first people they look at are family members to be sure they are not involved. Did they do that here? It seems to me that they are purposely turning a blind eye to any other suspects, like the old west movies where the real killer is a part of the posse.

I guess we would have to know how far away from where the body was dumped does the family live? Do they have a vehicle to transport a body? Why would they pick the child up from school and then kill her? Why not just kill her at home? I am sure the NBI has asked and answered these questions already and unlike in a first world country where all is possible, in a developing nation where most people do not even drive or have a car, it becomes more and more unlikely that family had anything to do with it if they do not have a vehicle.Now with all the pedo sex sites being discovered by law enforcement agencies, and with all the demand by pedos for photos of nude children, why is it that everyone seems to have such a problem believing that many of those sites are being run from the Philippines? And why is it that people do not think it is possible that this man and his former bargirl gf ran such a site? The one thing that makes the most money in this world is anything that is sex related and if it is taboo sex related, then it makes even more money. All one has to do is type in the word sex in a search engine and see how many hits they get. So is this guy guilty, I have no idea, and it is for the NBI to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt since they are treading a lot slower after the first big blunder made by the local police, but I would not be jumping to the conclusion that he is innocent so fast, just based on lack of info released to the news. Oh, and bargirls are great actresses, how many of them hook guys online and swear they are innocent angles, so the best defense is a good offense, and they also have the fact that so much time has passed, and that the police made the first major blunder on their side, and to give them confidence.

It is not for the NBI or any law enforcement agency to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, that is totally the jurisdiction of the court. I may not have lived in the Philippines and be an expert on these matters like some claim to be but I know that. And that there is a "presumption of innocence until proven guilty" even if they are bargirls.

[Mr Lee]

I am sure the NBI has asked and answered these questions already

I'm not.I know there are some scum foreigners living in or visiting the Philippines. I know there are some scum locals living here. I believe that Kuya Lee has gone native, ie jumped on the same bandwagon as the NBI when they have already proven their inability to conduct a fair and impartial investigation in this matter.To be sure that justice is done I can see the reasoning for following the theory of the 'one armed man' . . err I mean the foreigner who dun it, (reference to a long running but American tv show for you Aussies). But for the same reason I dislike the 'posse' mentality that I mentioned previously and that some foreigners seem to want to ride with.

I have not gone native Dave, it is just that I have more confidence in the NBI than you seem to have. After all is was them who cleared the first guy of the charges the local police charged him with. Also I did conclude in my post above with the below quoted part, so time will tell what evidence the NBI actually has.

So is this guy guilty, I have no idea, and it is for the NBI to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt since they are treading a lot slower after the first big blunder made by the local police, but I would not be jumping to the conclusion that he is innocent so fast, just based on lack of info released to the news.