Ahhh, So It Finally Comes Out About Bella & Griffiths

[Dave Hounddriver]

And this is what happens when police change from "serve and protect" to being agents for the prosecution. It is happening in our home countries too, but in a more discrete way.

[Mr Lee]

The covers with pictures of naked children is probably sufficient for a criminal case - it would be sufficient in the US - however, it is a LONG stretch from criminal possession of child pornography to murder, especially since Ella Joy was not sexually assaulted in any way. We could probably all come up with possible stories to provide a connection, but I doubt there is enough evidence to those stories to be anything more than pure speculation. I do suspect that if they find Santos, she is going to jail on the child pornography, and that may be enough evidence for the Crown to take action against Griffiths, as well. I am sure if he was a US citizen, he would toast on the child pornography unless he could somehow prove that the covers belonged to Santos and he did not know of their existence. I don't know if that constitutes "justice" for Ella, but it may be the best that can be obtained.

If it's "a LONG stretch from criminal possession of child pornography to murder", how does that constitute justice for Ella? From what I have read they have no direct evidence at all linking them to the murder except the witnesses. Weren't they the same ones that identified the first 2?

It's a plant...saving face because lawsuit number two is underway.The police in Cebu simply have not watched enough Matlock on TV....it's easier to create a suspect, and then work your way backwards from that point when all your police work consists of bribes and sitting around and doing nada. Oh...a video surfaced where they were?...crap, let's get rid of it and keep working backwards from our falsely accused murderers. Oh, damn...it's gone international and the world is covering it...looks like the video will stick and we will need to release them. Wait, new suspect created...the plates don't match?...lets alter it. Wow, sex DVD's and she was a GASP!...ex bar girl and they had a plastic dildo in the house...I know, let's make the cover girls underage and suggest they were making child porn and the girl said no, and they had to kill her BWHAHA, sry. but that story is ABSURD.....on and on and on....saving face sure does create for some stupidity.

A plant that their lawyer did not say was a plant, but wanted excluded because of a faulty search warrant, I think not, since it was there from the start and never denied as theirs.

[Inspector]

Don't you all think it is strange that they did not wish the hair strands, or the rocks, or the Pajero, or the rug to stay in evidence, and be tested if they were innocent? Too often we jump to the wrong conclusion because one couple was wrongly charged, therefore the other must be innocent as well. Just because the search warrant had one license plate letter wrong in it, does not mean that the vehicle should have been excluded, but the law says it must and all evidence found in it must as well, and just because it was, does that mean they are innocent if the evidence in it could not be used? Santos sold the vehicle quickly to someone who supposedly promised to recondition it, which would mean no traces of evidence might ever be found in it again, but that does not mean it was not there in the first place, yet cannot be used because the search warrant was invalid due to the wrong plate number. Sometimes what a person does, speaks volumes to whether they are guilty or not of a crime. I am sorry but when a person uses loopholes to get evidence squashed, it usually means they are guilty, because if they had nothing to hide, then IMHO they would have been happy to have that evidence tested to prove their innocence. Many guilty people walk because loopholes prevent all evidence to be presented, but that does not mean they are innocent. So if all they can charge them with is possession of child porn, then no that is not justice for Ellah, but at least they will no longer be able to use and abuse children, if that was in fact what they were doing. How many of you have cd holders with photos of child porn on it, I sure hope the answer is none, but if it is not, then please do not answer the affirmative on here. How many of you have blood stains in the back of your vehicles? Why would a person have empty child porn cd holders in their home if they were not making porn to fill them? If they were just users of child porn, would not the cases still be full? or the discs found somewhere in the home? Child pornographers buy cd holders by the cases and then fill them, I would love to know how many cd holders were found and if it was more than one or two of the same, then you can bet they were guilty of at least that, but as far as I am concerned, if they are guilty of making child porn, then I would not care if they rotted in jail, but I would care that the real killers were not caught, if they are not the real killers. Child pornographers are the lowest forum of criminal because they prey on innocent helpless children, so I have no pity for anyone who even possess that garbage, because possession means that someone got to sell it to them, which means children were abused somewhere along the way.

The empty porn CD covers were part of the items that then Regional Trial Court Executive Judge Mienrado Paredes earlier ordered to be returned to Santos together with the Mitsubishi Pajero, hair strands, Local Area Network cord, Nintendo DS game cartridge, rug, sex toys, waiver and assorted IDs and passport, and two stones.

Don't understand this? Wish the hair strand? On edit...got it now. :dance:

My use of English sucks at times, but they did not wish that evidence to be used against them, so they got it excluded because it was not in the search warrant, so I guess that makes them innocent. NOT!

Relax there Lee...they are guilty. I agree now with you. You are right. Oh wait..... NOT! Saving face and being right all the time...NOT good. :yes: NOT child porno enjoyment types. NOT killers. NOT guilty. Being a ex bar girl does NOT matter.

[Mr Lee]

Relax there Lee...they are guilty. I agree now with you. You are right. Oh wait.....NOT!Saving face and being right all the time...NOT good. :dance:NOT child porno enjoyment types. NOT killers.NOT guilty. Being a ex bar girl does NOT matter.

Ahhh, teapot calling the kettle black. OK inspector, you must be correct in your assumptions, after all you are the inspector, so I will bow to your superior knowledge and wisdom.

[Inspector]

Relax there Lee...they are guilty. I agree now with you. You are right. Oh wait.....NOT!Saving face and being right all the time...NOT good. :dance:NOT child porno enjoyment types. NOT killers.NOT guilty. Being a ex bar girl does NOT matter.

Ahhh, teapot calling the kettle black. OK inspector, you must be correct in your assumptions, after all you are the inspector, so I will bow to your superior knowledge and wisdom.

Having a bad day Lee? I don't recall attacking you in this thread....NOT....I just seem to be on a common sense binge while you are in another out to prove you are right bender. I will simply agree to disagree with your assumptions....but mine are right, and yours are wrong. You can get up now. :yes:

[Inspector]

Makes you go hmmmm....

BRITISH national Ian Charles Griffiths and his Cebuana girlfriend Bella Ruby Santos will file a “multi-million-dollar damage suit” against those who filed a kidnapping with homicide case against them. Defense lawyer Rameses Villagonzalo revealed Griffith’s plan to reporters yesterday and vowed to bring to court those who accused his clients of abducting and killing six-year-old Ellah Joy Pique last February. “They have to expect a love letter from UK. Good luck to all of you and get ready (to face the charges),” Villagonzalo warned.He said some police officers and prosecution witnesses will be named respondents in the case Griffiths will file. But lawyer Inocencio dela Cerna, counsel for the Criminal Investigation and Detection Group (CIDG) 7, downplayed the threat to sue. “Personally, I welcome it, most especially if it is filed in the Philippines. In this way, the court can acquire jurisdiction over him (Griffiths),” dela Cerna said in a text message. But he described Griffith’s plan as “an exercise in futility and a very desperate effort, coming from a fugitive from justice.” “His effort and money should be spent putting up a very good defense in the criminal case he is now facing,” said dela Cerna. :dance: The police are not afraid of Griffiths’ threat and are willing to face any complaint, said Cebu Provincial Police Office Director Patrocinio Comendador. “The police will just wait for their multi-million-dollar suit. It would be great that they will be here and file the complaint themselves,” Comendador, spokesperson of Task Force Ellah Joy, said in a text message. Griffiths, 48, of Southwest London, and Santos, 35, have a pending arrest warrant for their alleged involvement in the abduction and murder of Ellah Joy Pique last Feb. 8, 2011. The Cebu prosecutors elevated the case to the Regional Trial Court (RTC) last March 4. Judge Ester Veloso, who is hearing the case against the couple, issued the arrest warrant against the two and a hold departure order against Santos. In an interview yesterday, Villagonzalo confirmed he talked to Santos over the phone last week and asked her whether she was ready to surrender. He also informed Santos about the scheduled hearing of their omnibus motion tomorrow. But Santos is still unwilling to surrender because she still could not accept that she is facing arrest for a crime she did not commit, Villagonzalo said. “Hopefully we can convince her to surrender so the trial of her case will proceed,” he said, adding that they assured Santos that her defense is strong. He said the police and government prosecutors have twice requested the United Kingdom’s police force for a “prisoner turnover,” or to bring Griffiths to thecountry, but were turned down on both occasions. Assuming the “high-level negotiation” by the justice department and the British government is granted, Villagonzalo said the UK criminal court has to try the case against Griffiths. “You do your request next if you have the evidence,” said Villagonzalo, quoting the UK police’s response to local authorities’ request to bring Griffiths to the country. A nationwide manhunt for Santos has already been launched with the CIDG taking the lead, said Police Regional Office 7 Director Ager Ontog Jr. Copies of Santos’ pictures and arrest warrant were already distributed to different CIDG regional offices and other police units, he told police reporters yesterday.

[RetiredNavyGuy]

After some serious thought about whether to post to this thread any more, I have decided that I seriously disagree with Lee regarding Santos and Griffith's position on the search warrant.I would have done the same thing as a matter of principle. If the search warrant were such that the items seized were not legally seized, then they should be returned...and as now they are tainted evidence, they should not be allowed to be used in any case. It's not about trying to find a "loophole!" Its about holding authorities responsible for their actions. Without something like that, any search warrant could be arbitrarily expanded to look anywhere, for anything. The comment of "if you're innocent......" does not cut it in my opinion. How many rights have we already lost in the US on the basis of, "Hey, if you're not guilty, what are you worried about?" I seem to remember that you are, or used to be a police officer, and I am not accusing you of doing anything improper, but I can NOT say the same about your brother police officers, either in the US or here (or anywhere else, for that matter). The fact is, human nature is such that if we voluntarily lay down, even when we have nothing to hide, some fool is GOING to roll over us with a steam roller. Police need to be held accountable for there actions, just like normal people. You need only look at some of the TSA actions to realize what happens when someone in authority thinks they are above the law.Again, this is not a personal attack against you, or an innuendo about how you personally did your job. However, not everyone tries that hard to do it right.Hmmmmm, I wonder why the name Mark Fuhrman comes to mind. :)

Edited July 29, 2011 by RetiredNavyGuy

[Inspector]

Retired, it's standard lawyer procedure in any country to have evidence thrown out, nothing new there and hardly an admission of guilt....as you suggest, this thread seems to be getting too personal in a, I am right craze, and I am simply stating facts in profiling...which is not assumptions, but a science, a proven science. I will leave it alone, as Lee can be a pitbull with these things...and takes debates very personal if you debate back too hard, so I am going to slip away silently before we are in another board soap drama, but in full know that these are not your typical suspects for a case such as this.And yeah, I come from a large family of those dreaded NYPD cops, detectives and even a prosecutor. BTW, I believe the girl is scared because she is without a leg to stand on in this country, and of course sold her vehicle for "money", not to have it "cleaned up"....I'm guessing Griffiths has already passed a poly, and wants to now clear his name. I will say it again...the killer is closer then they are looking, and that will be my last entry to this subject....because even WITH what news we are fed from the filipino tabloids, as Tom says...it just creates MORE questions.

[Mr Lee]

Retired, it's standard lawyer procedure in any country to have evidence thrown out, nothing new there and hardly an admission of guilt....as you suggest, this thread seems to be getting too personal in a, I am right craze, and I am simply stating facts in profiling...which is not assumptions, but a science, a proven science. I will leave it alone, as Lee can be a pitbull with these things...and takes debates very personal if you debate back too hard, so I am going to slip away silently before we are in another board soap drama, but in full know that these are not your typical suspects for a case such as this. And yeah, I come from a large family of those dreaded NYPD cops, detectives and even a prosecutor. BTW, I believe the girl is scared because she is without a leg to stand on in this country, and of course sold her vehicle for "money", not to have it "cleaned up"....I'm guessing Griffiths has already passed a poly, and wants to now clear his name. I will say it again...the killer is closer then they are looking, and that will be my last entry to this subject....because even WITH what news we are fed from the filipino tabloids, as Tom says...it just creates MORE questions.

Once again the teapot calling the kettle black and anyone reading this forum can tell that we are both similar when we feel strongly about issues. Just because it is often the family member who is guilty in crimes like this, does not mean it is always the family member who is guilty, but I do respect you for your opinion. I have to agree that there needs to be laws and that the police who cross the line need to be punished, but what does that have to do with innocent or guilty. I do not know who changed the plate number on that vehicle, but just because the search warrant had Pajero with a plate number that was off by part of a letter, should not mean that evidence found in it cannot be used, when there is no other Pajero out there with the other plate number that was on the warrant, but that is the law and we have to live within the laws, but that does not mean the owners are innocent in reality. Robert, we are talking about different issues, guilty under the law and guilty but protected under the law, and IMO they may very well be guilty but not proven guilty because evidence was not allowed to be presented, or that evidence might have cleared them totally, if the hair was not from the girl who was murdered, if the blood found in the vehicle was not the girls blood, if the rug had no evidence of having been used to wrap the girl in to dispose of her body, and if the rocks did not have the girls blood on them. I have to wonder why two rocks out of what is sure to be many rocks around a house would have been taken if they did not have specks of blood on them? So testing those items, with the defense also having them tested by their own lab, may have cleared the suspects, or may have convicted them. So while each and everyone of us would no doubt use the letter of the law to defend ourselves to the fullest if charged with a crime, that does not mean people cleared because of that, are innocent, just not able to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, because a lot of the evidence was excluded. Unfortunately many of the police officers are poorly trained and that includes many in the US, knowledge comes with experience and often from learning from their own mistakes, so when gathering evidence and obtaining a search warrant, often stupid mistakes are made that end up with the evidence tossed out. I have to agree that some evidence should then not be allowed to be used against suspects when taken improperly, but if a vehicle is parked inside a driveway off the street and we know that PNP probably do not even have tools such as binoculars to look at the plate carefully, and peoples (witnesses and officers) eyes are not always the best and often mistake one letter or one number for another, try looking at a vehicles plate number from a few hundred feet away and then walk up on it and see if you got it right, so witnesses who see a plate where one letter looks like the next, does not rule out that the vehicle MAY have been used in the crime. So is the couple guilty under the law, only the court will decide, but are they actually guilty of killing the girl, we may never know because of excluded evidence. I would say that it would be much fairer all around if the defense and the police tested the evidence collected so that those people can be totally exonerated if innocent, because now even if found innocent they will always have that cloud hanging over their heads, just as the first couple who were never found innocent does, because charges were dropped and not found formerly innocent by the courts.

[Markham]

Don't you all think it is strange that they did not wish the hair strands, or the rocks, or the Pajero, or the rug to stay in evidence, and be tested if they were innocent?

Lee, these are all items that the Judge ordered to be returned to Santos. A cloth bearing a bloodstain had been found in the Pajero and that was tested but found not to match Ella Joy's. The Judge obviously agreed that the items he ordered to be returned were inconsequential to the case. Only Santos has been charged with the possession of a CD cover alleged to have pornographic images, not Griffiths. Nor has any mention of its existence been given to Interpol with either the first or second Arrest Warrants. I'm told that Scotland Yard has not actioned the second Arrest Warrant issued via Interpol 2 weeks ago. This may be because the Detective Inspector handling the case had already written to the PNP on June 28, the day Griffiths was released from Bail, and told them that their next action should be a government-to-government request for Griffiths to be sent to Cebu, if they have the evidence to support that request. I suggest that Santos was only charged with possession of that CD cover because both the Police and the Prosecutor fear their case for kidnap and murder is likely to "fall out of bed" given Griffiths won't be back in Cebu any time soon. Any government level request for him to be sent here will likely be rejected because (i) the UK has primacy under Section 8 of the Offences Against the Person Act, 1861 and (ii) there is insufficient compelling evidence against him. I think it is highly likely the Cebu Prosecutor will proceed with the trial against Santos for the possession of that CD cover but, and to save face, he will blame the British authorities for being uncooperative in returning Griffiths. Since the charges are against them both, he can not try one without the other and so will be forced to drop the kidnap and murder charges.

Too often we jump to the wrong conclusion because one couple was wrongly charged, therefore the other must be innocent as well. Just because the search warrant had one license plate letter wrong in it, does not mean that the vehicle should have been excluded, but the law says it must and all evidence found in it must as well, and just because it was, does that mean they are innocent if the evidence in it could not be used? Santos sold the vehicle quickly to someone who supposedly promised to recondition it, which would mean no traces of evidence might ever be found in it again, but that does not mean it was not there in the first place, yet cannot be used because the search warrant was invalid due to the wrong plate number.

The problem for the Police and Prosecutor is that six witnesses gave statements within TWO days of Ella's disappearance in which they all stated the vehicle that pulled-up in front of them and into which Ella got, was a black "SUV" with brown stripes and whose registration plate contains the numerals "679". Santos/Griffiths vehicle is neither black nor has those numerals on its index plate. It was only reported to the Police some 3 or 4 weeks later by two witnesses who claimed they saw such a vehicle parked in Barili Town the night Ella went missing. I ask you this: can you remember a vehicle (and recall its registration plate) which, when you saw it, didn't appear to be in any way suspicious, and that sighting was maybe a month ago? I very much doubt it!! Also remember that children as young as 6 and 7 rarely lie, particularly to persons in authority.The Cebu authorities had some 12 weeks in which to provide Scotland Yard with enough evidence - and to meet UK standards - of Griffiths' likely involvement. They failed to do so, preferring instead to make two requests for his hand-over. Hence the implied (if not stated) "put up or shut up" response. Mark Edited August 3, 2011 by Markham