Ahhh, So It Finally Comes Out About Bella & Griffiths

[Markham]

My use of English sucks, but they did not wish that evidence to be used against them, so they got it excluded because it was not in the search warrant, so I guess that makes them innocent. NOT!

So what happened to the presumption of innocence, Lee? That is enshrined in the Philippine Constitution but is rarely the case in practice. Fortunately for Griffiths, he is under the jurisdiction of a legal system that preserves that basic human right at every level of the criminal justice system. Your statement is reminiscent of the disgraced Senior Superintendent Erson Digal who voiced his conviction that Berger and Esdrelon were the guilty couple. Mark

[Markham]

Retired, it's standard lawyer procedure in any country to have evidence thrown out, nothing new there and hardly an admission of guilt....as you suggest, this thread seems to be getting too personal in a, I am right craze, and I am simply stating facts in profiling...which is not assumptions, but a science, a proven science. I will leave it alone, as Lee can be a pitbull with these things...and takes debates very personal if you debate back too hard, so I am going to slip away silently before we are in another board soap drama, but in full know that these are not your typical suspects for a case such as this. And yeah, I come from a large family of those dreaded NYPD cops, detectives and even a prosecutor. BTW, I believe the girl is scared because she is without a leg to stand on in this country, and of course sold her vehicle for "money", not to have it "cleaned up"....I'm guessing Griffiths has already passed a poly, and wants to now clear his name. I will say it again...the killer is closer then they are looking, and that will be my last entry to this subject....because even WITH what news we are fed from the filipino tabloids, as Tom says...it just creates MORE questions.

Once again the teapot calling the kettle black and anyone reading this forum can tell that we are both similar when we feel strongly about issues. Just because it is often the family member who is guilty in crimes like this, does not mean it is always the family member who is guilty, but I do respect you for your opinion. I have to agree that there needs to be laws and that the police who cross the line need to be punished, but what does that have to do with innocent or guilty. I do not know who changed the plate number on that vehicle, but just because the search warrant had Pajero with a plate number that was off by part of a letter, should not mean that evidence found in it cannot be used, when there is no other Pajero out there with the other plate number that was on the warrant, but that is the law and we have to live within the laws, but that does not mean the owners are innocent in reality. Robert, we are talking about different issues, guilty under the law and guilty but protected under the law, and IMO they may very well be guilty but not proven guilty because evidence was not allowed to be presented, or that evidence might have cleared them totally, if the hair was not from the girl who was murdered, if the blood found in the vehicle was not the girls blood, if the rug had no evidence of having been used to wrap the girl in to dispose of her body, and if the rocks did not have the girls blood on them. I have to wonder why two rocks out of what is sure to be many rocks around a house would have been taken if they did not have specks of blood on them? So testing those items, with the defense also having them tested by their own lab, may have cleared the suspects, or may have convicted them. So while each and everyone of us would no doubt use the letter of the law to defend ourselves to the fullest if charged with a crime, that does not mean people cleared because of that, are innocent, just not able to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, because a lot of the evidence was excluded. Unfortunately many of the police officers are poorly trained and that includes many in the US, knowledge comes with experience and often from learning from their own mistakes, so when gathering evidence and obtaining a search warrant, often stupid mistakes are made that end up with the evidence tossed out. I have to agree that some evidence should then not be allowed to be used against suspects when taken improperly, but if a vehicle is parked inside a driveway off the street and we know that PNP probably do not even have tools such as binoculars to look at the plate carefully, and peoples (witnesses and officers) eyes are not always the best and often mistake one letter or one number for another, try looking at a vehicles plate number from a few hundred feet away and then walk up on it and see if you got it right, so witnesses who see a plate where one letter looks like the next, does not rule out that the vehicle MAY have been used in the crime. So is the couple guilty under the law, only the court will decide, but are they actually guilty of killing the girl, we may never know because of excluded evidence. I would say that it would be much fairer all around if the defense and the police tested the evidence collected so that those people can be totally exonerated if innocent, because now even if found innocent they will always have that cloud hanging over their heads, just as the first couple who were never found innocent does, because charges were dropped and not found formerly innocent by the courts.

Your post presupposes that all evidence is treated and considered equally in the Philippine Criminal Justice system but I have to tell you that this is not the case. Evidence that might point to innocence is discarded as "alibi evidence" and may not even be brought-up in Court. A Supreme Court ruling a few years ago made a (stupid) landmark ruling by stating that where there are live witnesses, alibi evidence that contradicts shall be discounted. This is a country where many innocent people are convicted and sentenced by the Regional Trial Court following trials at which only witness evidence is produced. Many go on to lodge appeals with the Supreme Court where, if they're very lucky, they will get a hearing within five years. Many are in fact acquitted by the Supreme Court but, unless the case is high-profile or features a foreigner, they go unreported. You will recall the case of Corporal Smith of the US Marine Corps. At the time of Berger's arrest and custody, there was a reward of 110,000 Pesos on offer. This has now, I understand, been increased to 300,000 Pesos - a big incentive for would-be (false) witnesses, wouldn't you think? The only item (according to press reports) to have been forensically tested was a piece of cloth taken from the Pajero and only for blood-typing. One of the Prosecutors is on record as saying that they won't use that cloth as evidence because it weakens their case. Because of the Prosecution's preference to use witnesses rather than evidence, they did not ask the Court to retain the bulk of evidence. You know as well as I, in the UK and US, that Pajero would have been gone over very thoroughly. All the seats and carpeting would have been carefully removed, vacuumed and then the dust-container emptied and checked for anything that might point to Ella being in that vehicle. This did not happen. Nor did the Police check for her fingerprints being in the vehicle. In fact that car was left in a publicly-accessible carpark at a Police Station whilst it was in their :"custody". You may be convinced of their guilt. I prefer to allow a competent Court make that decision and until they are convicted, they are innocent. Mark

[Dave Hounddriver]

:wave: Good Job Mark. Whereas most of us here are only speculating based on gossip and news bits, I know that you have spent a great deal of time investigating this situation and you have a very analytical mind. Bottom line is, as you say, there is no compelling reason to consider these people guilty and speculation that they are, without a court decision, just assassinates their characters.

[Mr Lee]

I am not sure how many times I have to write if and may for it to sink in but I have gone back and highlighted some of them. My position is and always will be, just because a person is found innocent because evidence is not allowed to be used, does not make them innocent under God, but that is the law and we all have to live by it. So my point is, if a person is found innocent because of excluded items, then are they really innocent of the crime they were charged with, or did they beat the system. So if there is never a trial, then we will never know either way, unless the police happen to stumble upon someone committing the same crime or someone turns themselves in. Once again it would be my hope that the couple can either be proved guilty, or prove themselves innocent, but that will never be accomplished if the supposed evidence is never presented. As for alibi evidence being excluded because of witnesses to the crime, it seems the first couple was released because of alibi evidence because someone with brains (the governor and NBI) got into the mix and realized they could not be in two places at one time. Again the systems in many countries are unfair, so the rich seem to get away with murder while the poor innocent some times end up in jail, but it is the system. and if we do not like it, then why the heck are we living in the Philippines (in my case part time) full well knowing we could end up in jail if falsely accused? Would not the answer be for all of us to pick up and leave or never visit, if we feel the system is so bad? How else will the system get fixed if no protests are made. Either live within it, or leave, or never visit. I hope the day never comes that any of us are charged with a crime, but who would we have to blame but ourselves after all this?

[Dave Hounddriver]

I am not sure how many times I have to write if and may for it to sink in but I have gone back and highlighted some of them. My position is and always will be, just because a person is found innocent because evidence is not allowed to be used, does not make them innocent under God

It is because your position is untenable and no amount of repeating makes it more palatable. It is not up to any human to judge guilt or innocence under God and the law says you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Any presumption of guilt based on suspicion is just that, presumption and suspicion.

[Markham]

Once again it would be my hope that the couple can either be proved guilty, or prove themselves innocent, but that will never be accomplished if the supposed evidence is never presented.

Is that how the law is practiced in New York? Seriously! In a criminal trial, it is the job of the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, the defence does not need to prove anything - and certainly does not need to prove that the defendant is not guilty.The defence's job is to lob shells into the prosecution case, expose and capitalise on weaknesses and create doubt in the minds of the jury (or the Judge). However, in the Philippines, the scales of justice are weighted in favour of the prosecution by the fact that presumption of innocence is not (always) practiced at all levels of the Criminal Justice system.

As for alibi evidence being excluded because of witnesses to the crime, it seems the first couple was released because of alibi evidence because someone with brains (the governor and NBI) got into the mix and realized they could not be in two places at one time.

That evidence would never have been examined and considered were it not for the pressure applied by the Norwegian Government through its Honorary Consul in Cebu, who is incidentally a Filipino. The Police even attempted to undermine that effort - Senior Superintendent Erson Digal told the Governor that he had viewed the CCTV footage at the Waterfront Hotel and had discounted it. Trouble is that the Head of Security at the hotel told the NBI (who were by then involved) that no Police officer had viewed the tape. That tape clearly showed Berger and Esdrelon being in the Waterfront at the time Ella Joy was kidnapped. Had this happened in the UK, Digal - and anyone who conspired with him - would have been charged with the criminal offence of attempting to pervert the course of justice and upon conviction: summary dismissal, loss of pension and privileges and imprisonment. But in Cebu, the multi-millionaire copper was simply relieved of commanding the investigation.

Again the systems in many countries are unfair, so the rich seem to get away with murder while the poor innocent some times end up in jail, but it is the system.

Then it behoves the Department of Justice to put its house in order. This case is both a national scandal and a rapidly escalating international scandal - certainly in Europe.

I hope the day never comes that any of us are charged with a crime, but who would we have to blame but ourselves after all this?

So we are to blame for the failings of law enforcement and the Criminal Justice system??!! That statement is almost as offensive as the comments made by quite a sizeable number of Filipinos who contacted a radio station on Cebu whilst Berger and Esdrelon were in custody. They wanted Berger tried regardless of any evidence "to atone for the many crimes committed by foreigners that go unpunished". Mark

[Mr Lee]

That evidence would never have been examined and considered were it not for the pressure applied by the Norwegian Government through its Honorary Consul in Cebu, who is incidentally a Filipino. The Police even attempted to undermine that effort - Senior Superintendent Erson Digal told the Governor that he had viewed the CCTV footage at the Waterfront Hotel and had discounted it.

IMO one bad police official does not make the whole system and all police officers corrupt and incompetent, as it apparently does in your mind when you write "The Police".

So we are to blame for the failings of law enforcement and the Criminal Justice system??!! That statement is almost as offensive as the comments made by quite a sizeable number of Filipinos who contacted a radio station on Cebu whilst Berger and Esdrelon were in custody. They wanted Berger tried regardless of any evidence "to atone for the many crimes committed by foreigners that go unpunished". Mark

When taken out of context as you wrote it, but that is not what I wrote, below is all of what I wrote.

Again the systems in many countries are unfair, so the rich seem to get away with murder while the poor innocent some times end up in jail, but it is the system. and if we do not like it, then why the heck are we living in the Philippines (in my case part time) full well knowing we could end up in jail if falsely accused? Would not the answer be for all of us to pick up and leave or never visit, if we feel the system is so bad? How else will the system get fixed if no protests are made. Either live within it, or leave, or never visit. I hope the day never comes that any of us are charged with a crime, but who would we have to blame but ourselves after all this?

So once again, if we do not like it, then it behooves us to leave instead of continually complaining about how corrupt and incompetent all police are. I do not like it anymore than you seem to hate it, so I decided to not live full time in the Philippines for the time being, and I can only hope that I do not end up in a situation like one of those during our stays. The system is what it is, and the only way we can change it, is by hitting them where it hurts, in their pockets, or live within the system and use all tools at our disposal. You seem to feel Santos would be killed in jail, I feel that there is a real possibility that she will be killed while on the run, neither is perfect, but with all the publicity this case has brought about, I feel she would have to be kept safe in jail, but who knows, maybe I am wrong, I guess we may find out one day, one way or the other.

[Mr Lee]

Is that how the law is practiced in New York? Seriously! In a criminal trial, it is the job of the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, the defence does not need to prove anything - and certainly does not need to prove that the defendant is not guilty.The defence's job is to lob shells into the prosecution case, expose and capitalise on weaknesses and create doubt in the minds of the jury (or the Judge). Mark

Sorry I forgot to answer this part. Proving oneself innocent or as the system say, creating reasonable doubt, often includes the testing of evidence which sometimes proves the prosecutions case is dead wrong. I have seen numerous cases all over the US in which the defense had blood evidence and dna tested, and then used those tests to prove their clients innocent of the crimes. I think we are splitting hairs on the use of terms. Anyway I am glad you have brought some of these issues to print, both sides of an issue will never be seen if not debated. IMO we need more members to jump in and state their opinions when they do not agree with what has been written by someone (including me), and not just sit quietly on the sidelines. Everyone has opinions, and often our opinions are slanted by our own experiences in life, so sometimes others need to point out the inconsistencies or possible errors in them.

[MikeB]

So once again, if we do not like it, then it behooves us to leave instead of continually complaining about how corrupt and incompetent all police are. I do not like it anymore than you seem to hate it, so I decided to not live full time in the Philippines for the time being, and I can only hope that I do not end up in a situation like one of those during our stays.

So it's "Love it or Leave It". Well, at least we have that option and where you choose to live is not relevant to the discussion. What's wrong with complaining about a corrupt and unjust system? Isn't that an integral step in the process of changing it? Not that we're going to do that here but, if nothing else, it's a learning experience for those of us who don't know everything.

[No name]

If I were going to plant evidence, I doubt it would be an empty DVD Cover. If I were going to do that, I think I'd make dang sure the evidence was really good.