Ahhh, So It Finally Comes Out About Bella & Griffiths

[Candyman]

If I were going to plant evidence, I doubt it would be an empty DVD Cover. If I were going to do that, I think I'd make dang sure the evidence was really good.

I don't think an empty CD cover in itself would be any sort of evidence anyway, without the contents. Then, how does anyone really know whether it belonged to Bella or Griffiths? It could be anyone's and it could have been planted. What exactly was on the cover of the CD ? Was it really "Underage kids" or was it like so many countless thousands of genuine XXX rated stuff that features "young looking " models, who in fact are well over age, and is stated also on the covers, that the contents comply with US Code 'such and such" or UK code "such and such", and just because they "Look" young, does not necessarily mean they are in fact young ! A case in point, my own wife was often asked for ID, when she went to buy smokes for me out here in OZ, right up till when she was 30! Filippinas have a very good habit of looking younger than they in fact are ! If I was Bella, I would really make myself as scarce as possible, innocent, guilty or whatever, because at the moment, everyone is looking to fry her, just because, she fits the bill ! The evidence that they allegedly have on her and Griffiths is very shakey at best, and would be laughed out of court from what I have seen of similar sorts of cases over the years in Australia ! However, her life would be pure hell, right up to when they did decide to try her, and I for one, would not give you two bob for her life expectancy, once she was incarcerated ! I would rather be on the run, than dead, either justly or unjustly ! All that this entire case has shown me from day one, is the authorities are very good at grandstanding, where they think they will get brownie points, and all seem to turn into vicious, vindictive a**holes, when they think they are losing face, and are quite prepared to go to any lengths, to protect themselves from "losing face" ! That is just my two cents worth.

[Markham]

That evidence would never have been examined and considered were it not for the pressure applied by the Norwegian Government through its Honorary Consul in Cebu, who is incidentally a Filipino. The Police even attempted to undermine that effort - Senior Superintendent Erson Digal told the Governor that he had viewed the CCTV footage at the Waterfront Hotel and had discounted it.

IMO one bad police official does not make the whole system and all police officers corrupt and incompetent, as it apparently does in your mind when you write "The Police".

Since Berger has filed cases against four Police Officers, including Digal, Santos has filed cases against another two and her boyfriend has also filed cases against a number of Police Officers, probably including Commentador (Digal's replacement), I would say the problem was rather more widespread than you imagine. But I am talking about the Police on Cebu, rather than elsewhere in the country.

So we are to blame for the failings of law enforcement and the Criminal Justice system??!! That statement is almost as offensive as the comments made by quite a sizeable number of Filipinos who contacted a radio station on Cebu whilst Berger and Esdrelon were in custody. They wanted Berger tried regardless of any evidence "to atone for the many crimes committed by foreigners that go unpunished". Mark

When taken out of context as you wrote it, but that is not what I wrote, below is all of what I wrote.

Again the systems in many countries are unfair, so the rich seem to get away with murder while the poor innocent some times end up in jail, but it is the system. and if we do not like it, then why the heck are we living in the Philippines (in my case part time) full well knowing we could end up in jail if falsely accused? Would not the answer be for all of us to pick up and leave or never visit, if we feel the system is so bad? How else will the system get fixed if no protests are made. Either live within it, or leave, or never visit. I hope the day never comes that any of us are charged with a crime, but who would we have to blame but ourselves after all this?

Actually it's not out of context. The sentence I quoted is a paragraph and therefore stands alone. But you didn't answer my point! Mark

[Mr Lee]

So once again, if we do not like it, then it behooves us to leave instead of continually complaining about how corrupt and incompetent all police are. I do not like it anymore than you seem to hate it, so I decided to not live full time in the Philippines for the time being, and I can only hope that I do not end up in a situation like one of those during our stays.

So it's "Love it or Leave It". Well, at least we have that option and where you choose to live is not relevant to the discussion. What's wrong with complaining about a corrupt and unjust system? Isn't that an integral step in the process of changing it? Not that we're going to do that here but, if nothing else, it's a learning experience for those of us who don't know everything.

No, it is love it, leave it, or accept it, or as a last resort, use everything at your disposal to try to beat it. I guess that is what Ms. Santos is doing, but I think she is doing it at her own peril, I just hope she does not end up dead when found by the police, or killed by someone who wants her money, or killed by someone who wants to silence her, and in any of those cases, no one may ever know it happened. Yes we are taught to complain about our system, the problem is that in the Philippines it is like beating our heads against a concrete wall,and I have tried that for 17 years and have not succeeded, so I hope you and others have better luck at it than I did.

[Mr Lee]

Actually it's not out of context. The sentence I quoted is a paragraph and therefore stands alone. But you didn't answer my point!

So we are to blame for the failings of law enforcement and the Criminal Justice system??!! That statement is almost as offensive as the comments made by quite a sizeable number of Filipinos who contacted a radio station on Cebu whilst Berger and Esdrelon were in custody. They wanted Berger tried regardless of any evidence "to atone for the many crimes committed by foreigners that go unpunished".

Mark

I am not sure what question you wanted answered, that I did not already answer, but I will guess it is the above? :mocking: If so, I did not really feel it required an answer but here is my thoughts on the above subject. Is a person who walks down a dark street in a bad neighborhood wearing lots of flashy jewelry, while full well knowing about all the crimes that are regularly committed in that area, responsible for themselves getting mugged or killed, when they had other options to get where they wanted to go! Or is a guy with thick gold chains around his neck, and walking around the Philippines flashing cash, responsible for getting himself mugged or possibly killed, if he refuses to give up those items when demanded to by a mugger! We all have choices in life and our destiny can have a different outcome if we make the correct choices, so if we fall upon problems from some of those choices where we should have known better, then who should we blame. I know it seems most people want to blame everyone else for all that happens to them in life. So I ask you and others, now that you all seem to know the system in the Philippines appears to not work to your liking, what will you do about it besides blowing off steam on the forum? And to MikeB, I already made my decision to not live full time in the Philippines, until and if things should improve, and therefore do not spend all my money there, that is my small way of protesting, and I am sorry that you feel it is not relevant to the discussion, but I do.

[Mr Lee]

Hmmmm, so it has been said in this post that the defense does not use evidence testing to prove their clients innocent, "the defence does not need to prove anything" then I wonder why they are asking the court for these results to be shown? I also think it was stated in this post, that the blood typing was done on a piece of cloth, "The only item (according to press reports) to have been forensically tested was a piece of cloth taken from the Pajero and only for blood-typing." yet this article says the blood on the seat cover, so maybe they cut out a piece of the seat cover :SugarwareZ-034: or the statement about the piece of cloth is incorrect, or the news sucks as usual and got it wrong again :unsure: or could it be that Markham got it wrong since he did not post a source. :unsure: It was also stated in that post that "All the seats and carpeting would have been carefully removed, vacuumed and then the dust-container emptied and checked for anything that might point to Ella being in that vehicle. This did not happen." so where did the cloth come from? :unsure: and why was Markham so sure it did not happen? :unsure: Once again some more mysteries, and he said, she said, and possibly someone pulling suppositions out of the air, again because no source was posted.So as I said in past posts, it would be nice if the defense would have items tested to prove their clients innocent, and it seems they may have been reading this forum, or finally using their heads. :unsure: I have found that defense teams use every tool at their disposal and not just those challenges which eliminate evidence, that is when they believe their client might actually be innocent, and when the testing of said evidence should be to their benefit. So IMHO had they done this right from the start instead of maneuvering to eliminate evidence from the trial, then their clients might never have been charged in the first place, and then we might not have had to speculate on either side of the fence. Then again, they may have had to wait until info was leaked to them which said the blood test was inconclusive or was not that of Ellah Joy, and then IMO they would have only waited if they did not know or believe their client was totally innocent. What troubles me the most is, that people who only want to believe their side of a case, push what the press said or wrote to back up their position, and then say the news is not accurate when others post information which might be damaging to the position they wish to take, so if the news is bad, would it not be bad for both positions, yet the news is often all we can rely on, unless we happen to have connections who tell us otherwise, and then I have to wonder if even that info would be totally accurate. :unsure: Ellah Joy Kidnap-Slay: Defense wants DNA result offered in courtCEBU, Philippines - The defense counsel in the kidnapping with homicide case against Bella Ruby Santos and her British boyfriend Ian Charles Griffiths is planning to ask the court to subpoena the members of the Task Force Ellah Joy to produce the result of the deoxyribonucleic acid or DNA examination on the bloodstains taken from the seat cover of the vehicle believed to have been used in the commission of the crime.

[Markham]

Some of the information I posted comes from conversations with my uncle-in-law, a former PNP Officer who has served in both Cebu and more recently in Davao - where, incidentally, he was one of several trained by the Australian Federal Police who helped establish a "Scenes of Crime" unit. He tells me no such unit exists on Cebu, that function being provided by the NBI which, as an investigative unit, is not involved with this case, there being rivalry between the PNP and NBI there. You are quite right that a small sample of blood was found on a seat cover, quite likely a removable one although, admittedly, its exact placement has not been published. Given the prosecution have admitted that, upon testing that bloodstain, it proved not to be that of Ellah Joy, I think you can be fairly certain that had the Police discovered any evidence of her actually being inside that vehicle, they would have proudly published a finding. So either they didn't conduct a thorough examination or did so but found nothing to link her with that vehicle. And yes, the defence should require the negative result of that test to be included as evidence which, naturally the prosecution don't want to do as it weakens their case. As for the defence requesting the return of certain items seized during the Police raid of Santos' house, the defence lawyers successfully argued that those items had no bearing on the case - a stance the Judge obviously agreed with. Those items in themselves neither proved innocence nor guilt, they simply were irrelevant. I understand that a defence lawyer sought permission for Santos' Pajero to be sold (to help pay for her legal fees). Unless the Judge was satisfied that it wasn't used in the commission of the alleged crimes, would he have agreed to such a request? I suggest not. I guess being a former Police Officer and dealing with the sharp-end of crime for many years makes one jaded against the presumption of innocence, hence your oft-spoken remarks that Santos and Griffiths need to prove their innocence. That may be so in a court in Cebu - which is inquisitorial - but most certainly won't be the case if, in the rather unlikely event, Griffiths is sent for trial at an English High Court which is adversarial in nature (just like the US). Mark

[Mr Lee]

As for the defence requesting the return of certain items seized during the Police raid of Santos' house, the defence lawyers successfully argued that those items had no bearing on the case - a stance the Judge obviously agreed with. Those items in themselves neither proved innocence nor guilt, they simply were irrelevant. I understand that a defence lawyer sought permission for Santos' Pajero to be sold (to help pay for her legal fees). Unless the Judge was satisfied that it wasn't used in the commission of the alleged crimes, would he have agreed to such a request? I suggest not. Mark

Once again you make two statements with no backing and that apparently are just supposition on your part. :541: You say that you understand the defense lawyer sought permission to sell the vehicle, and then state to help pay for her legal fees, and as far as I have been reading, and as far as those I have spoken to, there is no such information, but maybe I missed something along the way, :unsure: so I wonder where you got that? My understand was that they could not prevent her from selling the vehicle because that warrant had been found invalid due to the wrong plate number. Also you state that the defense argued that those items sized had no bearing on the case, and you state the judge obviously agreed, yet my understanding is that there is no such statements to that affect and the reason they were excluded was that the search warrant did not include outside the home and the vehicle search warrant was tossed because of the wrong plate number, thus by law the judge had to toss items found that were not within the valid search warrants, and if my understanding is correct, hair samples and rocks which might have included blood, might have proved the Ellah Joy was in fact in that home and the vehicle, but those items were excluded for the reasons stated, but that is just my guess based on experience and information I have gained from asking people who should know, yet IMO they should have at least been tested to see if they belonged to the girl, and so far the defense has not asked they be tested because he does not know what the results might be. As we all know, for a few pesos, information can be easily leaked, and an inconclusive blood test on the seat cover would not necessarily mean that it was not Ellah Joy's blood, it might mean that someone used bleach and cleaning solvents to try to get the stain out, and therefore rendered it useless for dna or blood typing, and now the defense is going to use that inconclusive test to raise a doubt to show his clients are innocent, yet I would feel a lot better if all items were tested and especially the hair sample that I believe was taken from the vehicle. Once again, I also have to wonder why no request was made for the blood test to be published by the defense until now, and I already know the answer, because no smart lawyer would ever asks a question they do not already know the answer to. Added, I do not need to be correct on all this, or on anything for that matter, I would just like the members of this forum to get correct information, so if there is any articles which you can supply which would show your statements to be correct, please supply them. Edited August 9, 2011 by Kuya Lee
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[Markham]

and so far the defense has not asked they be tested because he does not know what the results might be.

You really do appear to have a fixation that the defence needs to prove innocence. A much more pertinent question might be "why didn't the prosecution insist that all items seized from the house and vehicle be forensically-tested for Ellah's DNA or fingerprints?" Could it be that, having tested the bloodstained seat cover and that not matching, the prosecution wanted to avoid a series of negative results, thus further undermining their case? This is somewhat reminiscent of the unwillingness of the Police and prosecutor to investigate the alibis put forward by Berger and Esdrelon.

As we all know, for a few pesos, information can be easily leaked, and an inconclusive blood test on the seat cover would not necessarily mean that it was not Ellah Joy's blood, it might mean that someone used bleach and cleaning solvents to try to get the stain out, and therefore rendered it useless for dna or blood typing, and now the defense is going to use that inconclusive test to raise a doubt to show his clients are innocent, yet I would feel a lot better if all items were tested and especially the hair sample that I believe was taken from the vehicle. Once again, I also have to wonder why no request was made for the blood test to be published by the defense until now, and I already know the answer, because no smart lawyer would ever asks a question they do not already know the answer to.

According to the press report, the bloodstain was tested for blood type only and a type was found but it was not the same as Ellah's. As to your second point, the results were not made known to the defence which they should have been under the rules of disclosure. It is the prosecution that has something to hide, not the defence.

Added, I do not need to be correct on all this, or on anything for that matter, I would just like the members of this forum to get correct information, so if there is any articles which you can supply which would show your statements to be correct, please supply them.

Are you sure you meant to say this? :541: Mark

[Mr Lee]

You really do appear to have a fixation that the defence needs to prove innocence. A much more pertinent question might be "why didn't the prosecution insist that all items seized from the house and vehicle be forensically-tested for Ellah's DNA or fingerprints?" Could it be that, having tested the bloodstained seat cover and that not matching, the prosecution wanted to avoid a series of negative results, thus further undermining their case? This is somewhat reminiscent of the unwillingness of the Police and prosecutor to investigate the alibis put forward by Berger and Esdrelon.

I am not fixed on anything, and the prosecution cannot use evidence gained by a warrant that was squashed, you know, the fruit of the tree rule, but you already knew that, or you should have, since I believe you have said you were a journalist. As for the blood typing not being Ellah Joys, as I wrote before, in a very corrupt society, it is easy to buy information, so it should be obvious that a defense attorney would never ask for something to be included, unless he already knew ahead of time that it would not prove his client guilty, but you already must have known that as well.

Added, I do not need to be correct on all this, or on anything for that matter, I would just like the members of this forum to get correct information, so if there is any articles which you can supply which would show your statements to be correct, please supply them.

Are you sure you meant to say this? :541: Mark

Yes I am quite sure that I do not wish the members of this forum to be given spurious information by anyone including myself that might have been dreamed up or brought about because of he said she said, and instead while the news may not be totally reliable, it would be nice if you would post links to stories and quotes from them, when you make these points, that so far you have not backed up. It is quite different when you post that it is your opinion as I have done and you have done in one statement, and then stated why, rather than when you post it was in the news and do not provide links to back up your point. I could have easily stated that it had been released in a hearing that the hair they found in the car was tested and was Ellah Joy's, but cannot be used because anything to do with the vehicle has been squashed, but that would not be the correct thing for me to do, because I do not have a reliable place to show where I got that information from, yet it had been said to me on the phone by someone that I would normally consider a reliable source, so I did not say that as a fact, and was just using it as an example since many people may lie or twist the truth to back up their suppositions, including people who talk to me, so unless it is in writing somewhere, I feel that we have to take it all with a grain of salt, well anyway that is what I do.

[Mr Lee]

How safe might she be out on the run when police officers are now being made to give up part of their pay as a reward to catch her? There is going to be a lot of pissed off police officers IMHO. Policemen raising cash as reward for Santos' arrest