Ordeal Follow Up / Different Topic / The 5 Month Rule?

[Bruce]

All right I have given this some thought as to why there are more than a few Pinoys / Pinays working that can't seem to be able to think their way out of a wet paper bag. I think we have already established that there are some competent people working in jobs and do quite well. But why are those people in the minority? I assume that these people are 'family members' or come from a family with money and had an education at a private school that required compliance with differing schedules and goals / requirements. All of which are learned skills that (hopefully) follow the student into the workforce. Well lets look at those members of the workforce that 'we' foreigners have issues with. Could it be????? that (my term) 5 month employment rule? I may be wrong about the minor details, but as I understand it, there is some loophole / requirement in the Pinoy work codes that says something about benifits are earned after 5 months of employment? So is it possible that there have been several generations of workers being raised in an enviroment that it is understood you get a job for 5 months and then are layed off due to the company not wanting to pay benefits and so last year you worked at a pizza place and a pharmacy and then moved onto a hardware store and then the restaurant worker, soon to be let go and searching for another 5 month job? If this is true, or reasonably true, then it is a partial explaination as to why workers never really LEARN the full capacity of their current job. Out on Samar, schooling is a joke. I am currently paying for 11 kids to go to school from 2nd grade up to college / Samar University. The college instructor has a 'job' and as such does not come to teach when held over by the 'job'. So the students come in and then are sent home. I spend time in the hospital watching what goes on and the nursing staff is more of a social club and the actual employed nurses do nothing while the students do what they can under the direction of the recent nursing grads who work for free to get experience and then apply for a work visa to leave Phils.... So we have free nurses with no actual experience teaching the students who are not equipped to understand they are not really learning what they should be learning. But everyone is happy and smiling! So the schools (public, i have no knowledge about private) are run very laxed and graduate students every year with marginal knowledge and a history of not being able to maintain a schedule or develop critical thinking processes.... When I was in Colon (Cebu) shopping, I would walk into a cell phone store and I would be attacked by 4-5 happy smiling women that if it were not for the fact that they were dressed, could not be differientated from a horde of GROs attacking customers in a girly bar. All very eager to help me, but only the 'family member' actually knew anything about the phones and was able to answer any questions. The rest were no more than eye candy. More 5 month workers???? I wonder if the 5 month rule was removed from the law, if it were changed to say, that SS money was deducted / paid on all workers from day 1.... if there was no longer any reason to lay off the employee after 5 months.... would the quality of the worker grow as they stayed longer in their jobs and as such, (one might assume) grow in their knowledge base? Referring back to my last ORDEAL post, I KNEW what I wanted to do. Build a simple 4x8 wood raft and then cover it in fiberglass. I supplied the measurements and told the (email) worker what I wanted and can they adapt it to the actual materials they stock? Can they ship to Samar? All I could get, after many emails, was a list of the supplies and their costs but NO TOTALS or shipping costs...... While I was doing this by email, the information I provided was the same info any person walking in off the street would provide. But I COULD NOT get the worker to give me a total! After I sent in a local person, it was found that the measurments supplied to me by email from the worker did not match with what the company actually stocked! So while my measurements remained the same, the order had to be re calculated to conform to both my measurements and to match what the company had in stock. AND, they can't ship after all! The worker I was dealing with 'should' have known what to do and if the company shipped or not and the correct measurements of the products they stock. But he / she (Arleen ?) did not. I did manage to get the supplies (3000p) and my friend shipped on the local bus out to Samar (300p). So I will build the best fanciest 4x8 plywood raft covered in bright red fiberglass that will last those kids many years crossing the (very nasty polluted) river every day.... and for those of you laughing about the crazy Kano who will spend 8,000+ in building this raft...... hey it IS cheaper than building a bridge..... But it was an ORDEAL ! and that should not have been so. Was this Arleen person a 5 month worker? Why didn't he/ she ask for help to complete my order? Is my experience typical of the customer experience in dealing with Arleen? Who knows?....... ( Well the Shadow Knows... but only a Kano 60+ would understand that.....)

Edited August 4, 2011 by Bruce

[Call me bubba]

:) :565: :th_exactly: :th_thbestpost: :thumbs-up-smile: quote from bruce All right I have given this some thought as to why there are more than a few Pinoys / Pinays working that can't seem to be able to think their way out of a wet paper bag. Bruce this is one of the best post I ever have read, i am sure without a Doubt this is why some foreigners here in the RP get so upset/angry,again, Bruce THANKS

[JJReyes]

There are two educational theories used by Philippines schools. KNOWLEDGE - The general student population is fed information that is considered useful. If you observe children memorizing their lessons, this is a good indication the school is using the knowledge method. The results are students who are doers rather than thinkers. This is the system employed in Philippine public education, which is from the turn-of-the-century education model in America. Students learn reading, writing & arithmetic. As employees, there are very good at following instructions and very easy to train. Assign them a brand new task without prior training, they can't do it. This is your, "...can't seem to be able to think their way out of a wet paper bag." INQUIRY - Private schools teach their students how to think including expressing opinions, defending, debating and arguing. The elite universities have feeder schools with their brand names. Students from kindergarten to elementary to high school are trained at an early age in the inquiry method. "The zebras have black stripes." - KNOWLEDGE. "Why do zebras have black stripes?" - INQUIRY. The above is generalization. There are public school students taught using the knowledge method who suddenly "discover" there is more to education than memorization. The best go on to private universities and the University of the Philippines. There are private school students who are there because their parents have deep pockets The term is "legacy" kids or dependents on the wealth created by their par;ents rather than having the ability to create their own. JJR

[Old55]

Bruce respectfully your post is way off base not because you are a bad person (clearly you are a good guy) but because you do not have a clear understanding of Filipino culture or spent time in their shoes.By assuming your comparisons are from the west and many times do not account for how things are in Philippines. Many times if you delve deeper or take a step back there is a reason for what is taking place. Please don’t take this as some kind of personal attack it is not but many of us (ME TOO!) forget we are not in Kansas any more and the vast majority of folks I meet there are as smart or smarter for sure kinder than found in the States.You are 100% correct in that temporary workers have no medical or rights to the job thus many workers are temporary.

[Bruce]

Bruce respectfully your post is way off base not because you are a bad person (clearly you are a good guy) but because you do not have a clear understanding of Filipino culture or spent time in their shoes.By assuming your comparisons are from the west and many times do not account for how things are in Philippines. Many times if you delve deeper or take a step back there is a reason for what is taking place. Please don’t take this as some kind of personal attack it is not but many of us (ME TOO!) forget we are not in Kansas any more and the vast majority of folks I meet there are as smart or smarter for sure kinder than found in the States.You are 100% correct in that temporary workers have no medical or rights to the job thus many workers are temporary.

I do understand, but I am looking forward..... each year, the world is getting smaller. What was once accepted as rural is not so much out in the sticks today due to the internet. The children of today are going to compete for the job of tomorrow, on the playing fields of tomorrow. As I said in another past post, I am not paying school fees for these kids hoping to get them into med school or a law program. I am hoping to get them basic reading, writing, math and problem solving skills to better be able to compete in tomorrows job market. Out in Catbalogan, there are 2 basic entry level jobs of last resort (jobs with a large number of people). Washer woman for women and pedicab driver for men. There are currently 674 licenses out for pedicabs. No more being issued. There are NO taxi cabs. Just pedicabs, motorcycle cabs and then a Toyota van rental available with a company driver. And the bus for long distance. There has already been some 'talk' about the ending of the pedicabs to free up some traffic congestion. But so far, that has not become a reality. If the pedicab drivers are outlawed, it will put several hundren men into a bad position of starving with their families or becoming a criminal to pay for food. These are the men, formerly boys, who did not 'avail' (interesting word) themselves of an education. But sooner or later, much like Manila did years ago, then followed by Cebu, the outlawing of pedicabs will happen in Catbalogan. First off the primary roads, then the secondary roads..... but still, no matter how you look at it it is the end (horse and buggy era) of a job that required no brain power, just strong body to make some money. With a population of 92mil and growing, it is my position that the business owners can be more selective and quite frankly, less tolerant of the marginal worker. As more and more foreigners, not just white faces come in and out of the Philippines and 'get angry' ad the poor performance of the casual worker, the business owners have little choice but to take notice. There will be a cut off time in which they get tired of fixing a mess that was caused by the casual worker and tired of explaining the short commings of those workers. Saying that 'this is the way it is done in Phils' or 'grin and bear it' are simply other ways to make excuses for poor worker performance. Since there seems to be A LOT of agreement that there is no shortage of 'angry foreigners'.... makes me wonder if the angry foreigner is at fault at all. Sure the angry foreigner draws attention to themselves, but if there are so many angry foreigners..... perhaps they are getting angry for a reason. If the Philippines wants to grow beyond being known as a manual labor exporter and the usual sexual references to the women, then they, starting from the government down to the business owners to the business supervisors need to start paying attention to what their workers are doing, who attracts angry foreigners with their poor performance as compared to those workers who who draw praises from us (damn) foreigners. The Philippines of pre WWII is long gone..... the Post WWII Philippines is long gone. The Cebu that Lee bought into 10+ years ago is changing faster than he can keep up with. And that is in just 10 years. And is the reason I chose to go to Samar instead of Cebu. The Philippines you think you know today, will be gone very soon. The Philippines is growing and the acceptance of a marginal work force is not helping the transition. The angry foreigner is simply the barometer of an expected level of service that was not met. Yet. You don't have to yell at anyone, nor get into a fights...... But if you order hot coffee... in ANY country on this planet the server should KNOW not to serve it unless hot. A store clerk should know how to add up an order in any county in any language, and if they can't, getting some what angry is a normal human response. The real issue is just how many people have to get angry until the manager / owner takes corrective action. While there will always be cultural differences, plain stupidity is not one of them. As Mr. Gump's momma said, 'stupid is as stupid does'. And the 'new and growing' Philippines has no room for stupidity. Edited August 4, 2011 by Bruce

[sjp52]

Bruce respectfully your post is way off base not because you are a bad person (clearly you are a good guy) but because you do not have a clear understanding of Filipino culture or spent time in their shoes.By assuming your comparisons are from the west and many times do not account for how things are in Philippines. Many times if you delve deeper or take a step back there is a reason for what is taking place. Please don’t take this as some kind of personal attack it is not but many of us (ME TOO!) forget we are not in Kansas any more and the vast majority of folks I meet there are as smart or smarter for sure kinder than found in the States.You are 100% correct in that temporary workers have no medical or rights to the job thus many workers are temporary.

I do understand, but I am looking forward..... each year, the world is getting smaller. What was once accepted as rural is not so much out in the sticks today due to the internet. The children of today are going to compete for the job of tomorrow, on the playing fields of tomorrow. As I said in another past post, I am not paying school fees for these kids hoping to get them into med school or a law program. I am hoping to get them basic reading, writing, math and problem solving skills to better be able to compete in tomorrows job market. Out in Catbalogan, there are 2 basic entry level jobs of last resort (jobs with a large number of people). Washer woman for women and pedicab driver for men. There are currently 674 licenses out for pedicabs. No more being issued. There are NO taxi cabs. Just pedicabs, motorcycle cabs and then a Toyota van rental available with a company driver. And the bus for long distance. There has already been some 'talk' about the ending of the pedicabs to free up some traffic congestion. But so far, that has not become a reality. If the pedicab drivers are outlawed, it will put several hundren men into a bad position of starving with their families or becoming a criminal to pay for food. These are the men, formerly boys, who did not 'avail' (interesting word) themselves of an education. But sooner or later, much like Manila did years ago, then followed by Cebu, the outlawing of pedicabs will happen in Catbalogan. First off the primary roads, then the secondary roads..... but still, no matter how you look at it it is the end (horse and buggy era) of a job that required no brain power, just strong body to make some money. With a population of 92mil and growing, it is my position that the business owners can be more selective and quite frankly, less tolerant of the marginal worker. As more and more foreigners, not just white faces come in and out of the Philippines and 'get angry' ad the poor performance of the casual worker, the business owners have little choice but to take notice. There will be a cut off time in which they get tired of fixing a mess that was caused by the casual worker and tired of explaining the short commings of those workers. Saying that 'this is the way it is done in Phils' or 'grin and bear it' are simply other ways to make excuses for poor worker performance. Since there seems to be A LOT of agreement that there is no shortage of 'angry foreigners'.... makes me wonder if the angry foreigner is at fault at all. Sure the angry foreigner draws attention to themselves, but if there are so many angry foreigners..... perhaps they are getting angry for a reason. If the Philippines wants to grow beyond being known as a manual labor exporter and the usual sexual references to the women, then they, starting from the government down to the business owners to the business supervisors need to start paying attention to what their workers are doing, who attracts angry foreigners with their poor performance as compared to those workers who who draw praises from us (damn) foreigners. The Philippines of pre WWII is long gone..... the Post WWII Philippines is long gone. The Cebu that Lee bought into 10+ years ago is changing faster than he can keep up with. And that is in just 10 years. And is the reason I chose to go to Samar instead of Cebu. The Philippines you think you know today, will be gone very soon. The Philippines is growing and the acceptance of a marginal work force is not helping the transition. The angry foreigner is simply the barometer of an expected level of service that was not met. Yet. You don't have to yell at anyone, nor get into a fights...... But if you order hot coffee... in ANY country on this planet the server should KNOW not to serve it unless hot. A store clerk should know how to add up an order in any county in any language, and if they can't, getting some what angry is a normal human response. The real issue is just how many people have to get angry until the manager / owner takes corrective action. While there will always be cultural differences, plain stupidity is not one of them. As Mr. Gump's momma said, 'stupid is as stupid does'. And the 'new and growing' Philippines has no room for stupidity.

Wow Bruce, I really like your Philippines. Can you tell me how to get there.

[Bruce]

Bruce respectfully your post is way off base not because you are a bad person (clearly you are a good guy) but because you do not have a clear understanding of Filipino culture or spent time in their shoes.By assuming your comparisons are from the west and many times do not account for how things are in Philippines. Many times if you delve deeper or take a step back there is a reason for what is taking place. Please don’t take this as some kind of personal attack it is not but many of us (ME TOO!) forget we are not in Kansas any more and the vast majority of folks I meet there are as smart or smarter for sure kinder than found in the States.You are 100% correct in that temporary workers have no medical or rights to the job thus many workers are temporary.

I do understand, but I am looking forward..... each year, the world is getting smaller. What was once accepted as rural is not so much out in the sticks today due to the internet. The children of today are going to compete for the job of tomorrow, on the playing fields of tomorrow. As I said in another past post, I am not paying school fees for these kids hoping to get them into med school or a law program. I am hoping to get them basic reading, writing, math and problem solving skills to better be able to compete in tomorrows job market. Out in Catbalogan, there are 2 basic entry level jobs of last resort (jobs with a large number of people). Washer woman for women and pedicab driver for men. There are currently 674 licenses out for pedicabs. No more being issued. There are NO taxi cabs. Just pedicabs, motorcycle cabs and then a Toyota van rental available with a company driver. And the bus for long distance. There has already been some 'talk' about the ending of the pedicabs to free up some traffic congestion. But so far, that has not become a reality. If the pedicab drivers are outlawed, it will put several hundren men into a bad position of starving with their families or becoming a criminal to pay for food. These are the men, formerly boys, who did not 'avail' (interesting word) themselves of an education. But sooner or later, much like Manila did years ago, then followed by Cebu, the outlawing of pedicabs will happen in Catbalogan. First off the primary roads, then the secondary roads..... but still, no matter how you look at it it is the end (horse and buggy era) of a job that required no brain power, just strong body to make some money. With a population of 92mil and growing, it is my position that the business owners can be more selective and quite frankly, less tolerant of the marginal worker. As more and more foreigners, not just white faces come in and out of the Philippines and 'get angry' ad the poor performance of the casual worker, the business owners have little choice but to take notice. There will be a cut off time in which they get tired of fixing a mess that was caused by the casual worker and tired of explaining the short commings of those workers. Saying that 'this is the way it is done in Phils' or 'grin and bear it' are simply other ways to make excuses for poor worker performance. Since there seems to be A LOT of agreement that there is no shortage of 'angry foreigners'.... makes me wonder if the angry foreigner is at fault at all. Sure the angry foreigner draws attention to themselves, but if there are so many angry foreigners..... perhaps they are getting angry for a reason. If the Philippines wants to grow beyond being known as a manual labor exporter and the usual sexual references to the women, then they, starting from the government down to the business owners to the business supervisors need to start paying attention to what their workers are doing, who attracts angry foreigners with their poor performance as compared to those workers who who draw praises from us (damn) foreigners. The Philippines of pre WWII is long gone..... the Post WWII Philippines is long gone. The Cebu that Lee bought into 10+ years ago is changing faster than he can keep up with. And that is in just 10 years. And is the reason I chose to go to Samar instead of Cebu. The Philippines you think you know today, will be gone very soon. The Philippines is growing and the acceptance of a marginal work force is not helping the transition. The angry foreigner is simply the barometer of an expected level of service that was not met. Yet. You don't have to yell at anyone, nor get into a fights...... But if you order hot coffee... in ANY country on this planet the server should KNOW not to serve it unless hot. A store clerk should know how to add up an order in any county in any language, and if they can't, getting some what angry is a normal human response. The real issue is just how many people have to get angry until the manager / owner takes corrective action. While there will always be cultural differences, plain stupidity is not one of them. As Mr. Gump's momma said, 'stupid is as stupid does'. And the 'new and growing' Philippines has no room for stupidity.

Wow Bruce, I really like your Philippines. Can you tell me how to get there.

Sure! Just follow the yellow brick road!